Sober Curious: Questioning the Norms of Alcohol Consumption- Part 1 (88)

So today's episode is going to be a little bit different than most, because we are having a community conversation About what it means to be sober curious. So today you're going to hear a conversation with me and Jody Seidel, who is the owner of a non-alcoholic Shop in Richmond, as well as clips that community members sent in about their relationship with substance. Over time, these conversations have Informed my relationship with substances so much, so I'm really excited to share this episode with you. And after this episode, if you want to continue exploring what it means to be sober, curious and want to try having a new relationship with substances, there is a link to a PDF in the show notes that is full of tips and guided reflection questions to help you explore your relationship with substance and To support you in having a new relationship with it. I also want to note that we do talk about Substance abuse in this episode, so if conversations around that are triggering for you, go ahead and skip this episode. Okay, I can't wait any longer. Let's dive into the conversation. I Met Jody when I walked into point five. I think the first time I had ever heard of the shop was when someone a Friend brought over a non-alcoholic wine to dinner and I just thought that was so cool and the wine tasted great. It was kind of like nice to have something to sip on. And she was raving about your shop and then Will and I my husband came in and just have been really enjoying. You know, getting different things from there.

Thank you, I love that. I love hearing that and I apologize, that might be my dog in the background, I don't know.

My dog, luna, likes to bark in the background too, oh my gosh.

As soon as I, as soon as you said hello, it's like that's when he decided to stop. Anyway, yeah, we will firstly thank you for coming in the shop and I love hearing that somebody takes a bottle of wine or take something to an event and you know people go, wow, let me try this. And then it just opens up.

So, yeah, yeah well, I'm kind of curious about what your relationship with substance has been like throughout your life and, I guess, what it's like now.

Yeah, so you know, I grew up in England and and Back in in the 80s there wasn't really a whole lot of if you could, you know, reach the bar, then you could get served. So I started probably having drinks at about 14 with friends and and that just sort of continued. It was such a big part of our life and what we did. Everything involved, you know, going to the pub, going to or eating out and having drinks, going to parties. So I started pretty young, didn't think about it, you know, didn't drink any more than anyone else or any less than people. Yeah, it just seemed quite normal. And then fast forward. So so it really was a big part of my life. And then, fast forward, I started working in restaurants and bars. You know, felt like I was getting more. You know, my tastes had had changed and I started to, you know, love very good red wines and Bourbons and things like that, and so as I got older, you know that that sort of changed and became more of a, you know, cocktail hour and having drinks with friends, and I Definitely questioned many times that potentially I was drinking too much. I did. I did get a DUI in 2017 and it definitely. I went through a divorce in 2015 and things sort of spiraled for a few years and then, I guess you're in pandemic, I. Well, from then, I, then I, I stopped, but I didn't stop completely, but I started being more sober curious. So that phrase that you know is so well known now Probably started back well, right around when that happened in 2017, and I would go back and forth and back and forth. During the pandemic, I really decided I wanted to Not drink as much because I knew that it could go either way. During that time and you know, for a lot of people it did a lot of people increase their drinking during the pandemic. People were drinking earlier, they were drinking on zoom calls, you know. So I started ordering a lot of things online that I could find, so that I had options at home Rather than, you know, if I didn't have anything. I love water, you know, but I Wanted something that defined the end of the day, and water wasn't really cutting it. I don't drink soda, and so you know I wanted something to sort of find that replacement. And that's where everything began Started ordering things in 2020. Then I got very busy in real estate, so I did think about Opening a shop back in those days, back in 2020, got very busy in real estate and sort of put it on the back burner, but I wasn't drinking very much at all for those few years. And then in 2022, I signed the lease for the shop and I stopped drinking completely 11 months ago. So it'd been sort of a wind down, wind down, wind down for three years where maybe I was I don't know having drinks maybe 15 times a year, so just stopping completely. And but it's something you know, I actually found a diary, which I think is so interesting, from when I was 27. And I'd actually questioned my drinking back then. So clearly it was something that had been, you know, in my mind for a very long time, that I definitely did not always have a switch off. I definitely, you know, wanted to be the life and soul of the party. I wanted to hang with the guys. I, you know, was proud of the fact that I could really handle my drink and you know, and all those things. So for me it was. It was definitely. I relied on alcohol for every situation, be it celebratory, commiserating, happy days, sad days, you know, great we could work, bad we could work. It didn't matter what it was. There was always a reason for me to, you know, to buy some wine, or to buy some drinks or something.

Yeah, I think. Well, first, what you're saying about how you questioned your relationship with drinking like a lot throughout your life, which I think is really common, and we haven't had a really language or space to talk about it, which is why I find the term sober curious so interesting. I had never heard it before until probably like maybe six months ago, right, and I'm curious what is sober curious mean? What's your interpretation of that?

My interpretation is simply the curiosity around what's it like to have an alternative, what's it like to try having a non-alcoholic beverage at the end of the day? What's it like to go out for dinner and, instead of having you know what you normally drink, to try something else? So just curious about, I think it's more of a lifestyle, curious about how your lifestyle is going to change If you decide to either be cutting out drinking altogether or just be more mindful about it. So sober, curious, mindful drinking it's all sort of to me the same idea, just sort of. You know, we don't think about it very often, especially people that, like me, tend to be all or nothing people. For the longest time it was either you drink or you don't drink. You know, and nobody wanted to say well, I do, but I'm really questioning it, or I do, but I don't think I should, but I don't really know what to do because it's been, it's been such a massive part of my life and and all my friends drink and all my colleagues drink, and you know. So it's that curiosity of how it will. How will it affect my life? A lot. How will it affect my life, you know, and then, looking at that and I. That's how I interpret it. I don't think there's a right or wrong, but there could be. I don't know who and I could be wrong, but that's how I interpret it. Yeah, I feel really similarly with that.

And I think maybe there just hasn't been. It's just been such a societal norm for so long, like people used to have beer breaks at work instead of like a coffee break, because that was how you could have like a clean beverage, you know, because water wasn't purified, then it was like there were. So there's a long history of alcohol just being ever present and seeing as this like, hey, this substance is OK, it's quite expected to be used, whereas other substances aren't, which I find really interesting, and it's really a lot of what you were saying I think is really similar to what I relate to and what a lot of people sent in about there being this culture around alcohol and it's this societal norm. It's something that you know. That's how we engage socially with people. You know it's common in celebrations, like you were said, whether it's a happy thing or a sad thing, it's really common to have a drink there, regardless of the occasion. A community member shared about their experience with alcohol and substances in different spaces. Ok, this is from another organization in Richmond called fallout and they host something called a so bar party throughout the year during different times. So this is something I found really interesting, personally.

I am not sober. However, I have been deeply touched by alcoholism in my family and one of the biggest things that with my family member who was who's alcoholism eventually led to their death was that they kept on relapsing because they never felt like they could go out and have fun. So they would go to places that they wanted to go to and attempt to be sober, but because everyone else was drinking they just ultimately relapsed and they did that so many times. Eventually just they passed away and that just always stuck with me that they just never felt like they could go anywhere and have fun and I thought if, well, if anything, if this helps people get used to being in a space that would normally have alcohol but soberly, that maybe eventually they could be here when there was alcohol and not have the awkwardness and be able to go enjoy the things that adults enjoy, but without having the presence of alcohol there, because we are kind of attached to that crutch of alcohol as a social lubricant in our nightlife spaces and you know, people don't really know how to have fun lots of times without alcohol. So this just kind of removes that temptation and allows people to just be in a nightlife space sober.

I found that response really powerful. You know sharing about like a loved one who you know didn't make it because they had such a hard time being in social spaces, and how that inspired something else. And you know, throughout high school and college we would joke around and be like, oh liquid courage to go into this situation, but I think it is a very real thing. We don't often have many opportunities, especially as young adults and adults like, where we are engaging in spaces without a substance present and there's kind of always this veil to help us feel more comfortable when we're around other people.

Oh, absolutely. And that's part of why, you know, I started drinking at a young age. I was quite shy, actually I mean people will think of me as an extrovert, but that's mainly because I always had that liquid courage. But yeah, absolutely. And then when I found that I could become this much more drabacious and outgoing and speak to everyone and lose all of my worries, then you know, then it becomes, once you see that and you do that, then you forget how to be without that. And that's the trouble it becomes habit, because you think, oh, if I'm, you know, as I got older, before, you know, before I would go out or go on a date or something, I might have a glass of wine at home. You know, before even going out, because, again, you know, just to kind of go, okay, well, I don't, you know, first date or something, you don't know the person, you know. Hey, now I feel just a little bit more relaxed and but you become so used to that that you really forget how to be without it. And so to the point of what the lady just said. It is you know, you do feel incredibly uncomfortable when you stop and you still try and do the same things because you feel like you stand out. It's definitely, you know, an internal thing. It's not no one else is thinking you stand out, but you know you feel it to yourself that you are. You know you stand out like a sore thumb, that you're gonna be boring, that nobody's gonna think you're funny anymore and nobody. You know people will be like, oh my gosh, she's not drinking, it's gonna be boring this evening. You know, and you pull these things on yourself and for a lot of people and for me, that kept me having alcohol in my life. For another, you know, 25 years from being 27 and writing that, which is crazy. But then you know, for me it was joining. I joined a community, an online community, in 2020. And that's when I realized there was so many people like me all over the world all trying to get a grip and figure out. You know some people that cast themselves as an alcoholic, some people that cast themselves as alcohol dependent. You know, whatever the feeling you or what you wanna put on yourself, didn't matter. We were all struggling with the same thing.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of layers to that one as well, like, I think first of all, there is definitely this like interesting I don't know quite the word for it but there's like dependency and there's addiction and there are different things. But I also think they live in a spectrum and I think that on some level, most of us have some sort of dependency towards a substance right Whether it's like coffee, even, or these other drugs that are present in our world that we like turn to for different things, and it's curious which ones are like okay to use and like societally normal and which ones are seen as not that. And it's also really curious from my perspective of like mindfulness, right, it's like often we turn to that substance when we don't know how to be with the discomfort of a situation, right, yeah, like whether it's a first date which, like I know, I have like taken a shot or had a glass of wine before going on a first date before, or, you know, being in a social situation, whether it's I've so many times I've had a drink at a party or at dinners just because I was so uncomfortable with not Like with having people questioning like why isn't she drinking? Like thinking that might be weird, versus feeling confident enough in myself Like I just it's not what my body wants.

Right, right, and that's absolutely. Another big part is how people project on you, if you decide you're not drinking, how it affects other people around you, because people wanna know why and they question and they just don't. You know they don't get it. Nobody questions you when you decide to stop smoking. Nobody says why on earth would you do that. Like it would be the most ridiculous thing for somebody to say you know, I can't imagine, oh my gosh, my life would be so different if I didn't smoke. You know it's silly things or whatever substance that we could be using, you know, to replace what the smoking I just said no, there's no other thing that anyone does that gets those questions, except for alcohol, exactly, and that's one where people question it and they think there's something. They assume that you've hit rock bottom if you quit drinking, because why would anyone quit drinking if they hadn't hit rock bottom, you know, and all these sort of things, and that's I mean it's just crazy. And so I have some. I have a family member who is an alcoholic and you know she kept on, just like some of the comments that the other lady made, for quite some time because she didn't want to sound out, she didn't want to be that person. She didn't want to be questioned why. And it's yeah. When you think about it, it's really just mind blowing that we put so much on drinking. I've heard people say you know, I don't trust somebody that doesn't drink.

Yeah, that's like a freeze.

Yes, and it's so crazy when, the more I think about it, you know, and I worry that I might have been somebody that made that comment 20 years ago. But yeah, and that's, you know, I think it's. I probably made comments like that because I probably felt uncomfortable with how much I was drinking you know, so we then put the reflection on somebody else.

Yeah, and it's almost just like undertone of societal peer pressure, but it's also just like expectancy. It's like, yeah, you'll grow up and you'll have a glass of wine at dinner and when you're out with friends and that will be normal. But that's not the same relationship that there is with any other substance. Just like you said, there's like no other substance that people ask you why you don't do it.

Yes, why you don't do it? They if you yeah, nobody questions anything else. The way they do alcohol and that's just because we've been fed it from everything we see on television, movies, tv magazines, everything we look at. It's drinking is a sophisticated thing. It's a you know, people that are wealthier will have the wine lunches or the martini lunches, you know, and they'll go to the country club and the golf, and you know we put this. If you're in that position, then gosh, there's absolutely no problem with somebody drinking, compared to somebody that's on the street that is drinking out of a brown paper bag. At the end of the day, the alcohol is the alcohol, it's just. One is prettier than the other. So you know, but we, we, we are so tricked to see it in such a different capacity. And I do want to say I'm not about people. I'm not knocking anyone that drinks because I I'm not. I am an all or nothing person. For me, moderation it doesn't work. But that doesn't mean that I don't think anyone should drink. Or I'm going to say drinking is terrible. Yeah, that's not ever where I'm coming from. It just I just think these conversations, people are starting to realize that this it's. We're so tricked to believe it's what we need, when so many times it's the complete opposite of what we need.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that tone. It's not a judgment space, it's just an interesting thing to question things. Yes, that we never really have before. So if you are feeling sober curious or exploring your relationship with substance, I have created a special PDF to help guide you through that journey. So if you're questioning your relationship with substance and want to know more support on maybe trying out a dry January or what it means to be sober curious, go ahead and click the link in the show notes to download the PDF for some extra support. Also, I know that January has already started, so if you are interested in a dry January or being sober curious, know that it's never too late to start. You can try a damp January. That would be a very sober curious thing, or you could even start your dry January today. So just some ideas and don't hesitate to download the PDF. There's a link in the show notes for extra sober curious support. During the pandemic started to drink less and I have similar. It felt like I never loved drinking. I think the most fun I had with it was in high school and college. I liked it less. And adult life I like it, liked it less and I during the pandemic I really noticed that I was feeling really anxious and I didn't think that helped. And something I've noticed is from people sharing is a threat of how alcohol is impacting mental health and how other substance have impacted as well. So I personally noticed feeling more anxious and disconnected from my body. I was sometimes during the drinking, but most most often after, like a day after, just feeling off, even not hung over right, just like not connecting with myself the way I wanted to, whereas there are other substances I use that I don't have that experience that will help with those things and enhance that connection. Right right, have you had any experience with that?

Oh, absolutely Absolutely. I mean especially as I got older, probably from when I hit about. It was probably happening before I hit 40, but definitely in my 40s. I think that well, the more I questioned internally, even if I didn't share it with anyone, because you know what it's like if you I felt like if I told my husband at the time or my family that I was questioning my drinking, then they would all be watching me with an eagle eye like, okay, yeah, you know, you probably shouldn't have another one. And I definitely didn't want to be in that situation, mainly because I just didn't want to be told, you know, that I was wrong. But I, but I was definitely questioning internally. And then what would happen is I would over imbibe and then I would wake up the next day and I would feel so angry with myself and the absolute anxiety that came with it, and now people call it anxiety right. So you know, I would feel so anxious about it and so uncomfortable and so mad at myself, out being my own worst. You know, nobody else had to tell me that I'd had too much, because I was already beating myself up about it. And then, but then, of course, to get rid of that anxiety, you know that evening or the following evening, a drink would temporarily get rid of the anxiety, and then you're just in this constant, constant, constant. You know, cash 22 situation. So you're just going round and round and round in circles and then it, you know it becomes almost debilitated because I would be so upset with myself all the time.

That's not conducive to me or my family or anyone else, so so I want to add in another quick tip that has been helpful for me over the last year is that, instead of asking how or if this substance is harming, you, ask yourself how is this substance benefiting you, and let that dictate the decisions you make. I'm going to share a clip that touched a lot on what you said about this cycle of like. Think again it's different from everyone. There's a wide range that I heard from, where some people, when they drank, you know like, felt a little better and then the next day felt not as good. Some people it was when they drank. They would feel more out of control from their bodies and more disconnected and more anxious. But I think a lot of the after effects was a theme. So I'm going to share two quick clips.

I've been starting to be more interested or, I guess, sober curious about taking a break from alcohol to see how that really affects my physical body and my mental health. I noticed like I tend to spiral down the next day after I've been drinking, having more feelings of anxiety and just not feeling comfortable in my body. It's kind of a hard thing to stop because that's not the sensations I feel while I'm drinking Not that I've really ever been someone that drinks to excess often, but it's just hard to balance the two, because you might feel more relaxed the night that you're drinking, but the next day is just too much anxiety and not feeling really safe in your body, absolutely.

Yeah, that sounds really similar to what you shared about kind of this cycle we toggle between yeah, yeah it's helping me and I feel relaxed right now and I kind of need this right now. But then the flip side of like now I feel worse and then the cycle, yeah, exactly yeah.

Yeah, there's such a correlation between alcohol and mental health and and it's, and you don't have to be drinking to excess, like she said she doesn't. Yeah, it can be, it can be one drink, it can be two drinks, it's still going to have that effect. The next one in your sleep, obviously, because you know you'll, the body wants more alcohol to get you up and you're sleeping and you're going to wake up and of course you've got the thirst and you'll wake up anxious at probably three in the morning, and then you know. So then you go, try and go back to sleep, and then that anxiety is there two fold when you actually finally do get up, and and then it stays with you, you know, pretty much for the rest of the day and it's, and it's that, yeah, it's, it's a battle and it's exhausting.

Yeah, and I think for for me personally, like I during pandemic, when I was like already knew I was anxious, I was like, okay, maybe I'm gonna just chill out, not do that as much for my mental health. There was a wave during the pandemic where I certainly did, because I feel like that's what the pandemic could bring out as well. But Right as I have gradually since and started drinking less and less, I'm much more able to attune to my body and how it's feeling the next day. So I think the last two times I had a drink, one was my husband and I were at like a really fun, fancy dinner and I got a fun cocktail and, like you know, had a great time. It was, it was lovely. Right Next day, you know, I had one drink. The next day I felt off, you know. I was just like. So I kind of like noted that and was like, okay, maybe the next time we're out to dinner at a fun dinner I just don't, because I don't really feel good today. And then the most recent time I was visiting old friends from Nashville where I used to live and people I love so dearly, and we were having nachos and margaritas and I was like I haven't seen these people in forever. It'll be fun to just have a drink, you know, and be together, right. And then I have a drink and I felt, you know, fun and goofy and like myself for probably 15 minutes, and then after that, I started to feel like disconnected from myself, from my body, from the people I was with when like, and I was really bummed out. So I was like man, like I didn't even finish my drink. I was so excited to be here with you and now I feel pulled away from you. So, like noting that, and I think for me these are things that were probably always happening when I would have a drink, but again, I was so used to it that, you know, I didn't have the ability to discern the difference because I didn't have an equilibrium within my body.

Yeah, and I think and that's exactly and I think that's when you, when you start having that so curious kind of feel, you start paying attention to those things and yet they were probably there all the time. But you know, we'll just use to, or you can or it, but then the more you cut it out, I feel like you're so much more aware when you do go back and that's what was happening every time I went back and just had a drink or something, it would feel, yeah, I would feel just not in a good space at all and I was so much more aware of it.

But after Jodi and I had this conversation, I realized that what we were talking about here is called a VA experimentation and that's when you try behavior, then you take it away and then you try it again and when you do that you can notice the difference of how you feel before and after. And honestly, I have been using that as I explore my relationship with substance and it has been really impactful for me and is one of the primary reasons probably the primary reason that I don't really drink anymore.

And when we're kids, you know, before alcohol ever comes into our lives, we know how to deal with. You know things at school or you know situations because we, we have no other way and we, so we just deal with it. But then we have, you know, alcohol comes into people's lives and then they deal with it with alcohol. So then we forget and we don't know how to sit with feelings, which is why then people pick up a drink, because they just don't know how to be and want a quick fix from feeling sad or feeling you know some. For me, I get a lot of nervous energy. You know. When things are going right too, you know, and I don't quite know what to do with myself, and that's when I would be like, oh my God, let's buy a bowl of wine, let's have drinks, you know. And now you know it is uncomfortable sometimes, but you know I did it a long time ago so I know I can do it again. It's just getting cutting out. The alcohol is kind of the first part a lot of the time, and then it's kind of getting used to having to figure out those other feelings that we've ignored for a long time.

Yeah, that's, I had never thought about that Like as children you're exactly right we do know how to deal with these big emotions. It's not expected that there's like a substance to use to help you. It's like no, you learn how to work through it and as we're adults, we get farther and farther away from that. It becomes more and more the norm and more and more the okay to like having a hard time dealing with this. Try that.

Oh. So first thing people will say you know, oh, you've had a rough day, pull yourself a stiff one tonight you know, or whatever you know it's. I mean, it's the first thing, oh my God, you've got. You know, you've been promoted, just crack out the champagne. I mean, it's so integrated with everything that we do, so, taking it away, you do have to sort of go. All right, what's my treat now?

What's my?

you know. So it takes a minute, for sure, yeah.

And I really hear what you're saying too, about like how we're dealing with things and all and as a treat, like whether it's a good day, a hard day. It's nice to have something, some sort of like ritual, to support you through that right. And that ritual could be a wide range of things, but it's often alcohol. So, sidebar here, if you are sober, curious and you find that you're craving this end of the day ritual, I recommend replacing that substance with something else. So for me, over the last year, I have really enjoyed having sparkling water at the end of the day. You can even add some bitters or some citrus to make it feel fun, even some herbs in there. Adrenal cocktails and mocktails are a great replacement as well, and also tea. I mean, I always love having tea at the end of the day. So instead of focusing on taking away, think about adding in something new that's going to support you. So in this next clip you're going to hear from a community member who shares about how substance support has been a part of their emotional processing of things. I also want to note that this next clip references sexual assault. So if conversations about that are triggering for you, go ahead and skip this next part and you can look in the show notes for where to begin again.

And there were times when I did feel like out of control and safe with my body and I felt like it having alcohol led to an increase in that sense of just like fear, especially being a woman, of like being out of control in your body. I've had experiences with just like sexual assault that had to do around drinking the worst one, I actually was not drinking but the other person was and that, you know, left a deep trauma. But, yeah, alcohol was a part of my life, especially as a late teen in early college, and then marijuana kind of joined the show. My relationship's changed. Yeah, early on it was definitely like doing it because other people were doing it and trying it and feeling a little sense of yeah, connection increased and also connection with my body felt better. After my big trauma, my sexual assault, I leaned on cannabis as kind of like a numbing and support for getting me through like a time of deep depression and anxiety and panic attacks and it was certainly a crutch and like a banding, but I was grateful for it and sort of created a relationship with that substance and I certainly view cannabis and psilocybin as medicine when used in the right way, but I think I was definitely using in a not super healthy way. It was like okay, I feel too many emotions and I don't know how to navigate this, so I need cannabis. I had a lot more support with my mental health. I created more of a relationship with cannabis where it was like okay, I just do this when I feel like I want to for certain reasons. Yeah, utilizing it in an intentional way instead of like a numbing.

I really love leaning into the questions here of what is your intention for using a substance in any given moment and noticing how it makes you feel, if it pulls you into the body or pulls you away from it, and also really sitting with. When are we using substances to process big trauma and emotions and how we can cultivate other tools to navigate these big emotions without substance support. We've also pretty much only been talking about alcohol to this point, but a lot of community members also shared about the roles of cannabis and psilocybin in their mental health and, as well as a substance that people are using, what is your relationship, I guess, with other substances than like?

The only other substance would be cannabis and I don't well, so I have no issue with that. I guess for me everything that has gone wrong in my life has had to do with alcohol, everything that I feel I've put myself, as she mentioned, I've put myself in situations that could have gone horribly wrong and that was always due to alcohol. And I started in my late 40s especially, started blacking out a lot. So, friends and people, I was perfectly coherent and people couldn't tell and people very close to me could, but other people couldn't tell that I was in a blackout state and would have no recollection. So for me, I never had I smoked, used cannabis. In England we used to do hash as well when I was 15, 16, 17, but it was never an issue. It wasn't something that I had to have, it was fun on occasion. Fast forward to now, I will still do that on occasion. The difference being for me is that it's when I'm just chilling out. I wanna just stay home, watch TV, I wanna relax. It helps with any anxiety. It makes me feel, you know, it gives me a little bit of something if I wanna switch off. You know extremely busy, pretty stressful jobs and it gives me that little bit of switch off. The biggest difference is I'm not getting in my car, I'm not making random circles, I'm not embarrassing myself, I'm not embarrassing anyone around me. So for me I enjoy that as an alternative. I have drinks that have that in it and that's my a lot of the time. That's my evening drink. I have one and it's, you know, has some cannabis in it and it's perfect. So that's never been an issue. You know has it become a little bit of a replacement perhaps, but it's not something I feel like I need to do all the time, or, you know, day in and day out and every night. So I think when it comes to substance or substance abuse, it all depends on. There will be people that will say to me and people in the community different communities I'm in that feel very strongly that if you say you're sober, that means you don't participate in any mind-altering substances. For me I would 100% say I'm sober because I don't drink alcohol. So the other doesn't even come into play for me because it's never been an issue, it's never caused me any problems or caused any harm to me or anyone around me. So that's how I view it. So of course, we've got the California sober term and a lot of people that quit drinking end up doing that, and I think so much of it is also depends on what happens. You know people that are in sobriety for many reasons. It may stay away from both, you know, or if they've used other substances. So I think it's such an individual thing and I don't think anyone can label or say this is right, this is wrong. You're full of crap because you say you're sober, but you still will. You know, if I'm taken having cannabis. I just you know everyone's entitled to their opinion. For me, it's not a substance that I abuse, but it is something that I will do.

Yeah, I very much agree with that. I actually had a pretty big trauma around cannabis, around cannabis at a young age. When I was in high school I was dating someone who used cannabis to really self-medicate a lot. They were bipolar and it was a support for them, but to an unhealthy extent, and when they weren't able to, I guess, stabilize through that, they turned to harder drugs and it evolved into a heroin addiction.

And at that time.

you know, I'm 16, I never touched any of it, but my first experiences with cannabis were these really negative ones. And then that paired with society telling you so much at least I knew my parents like my parents would have a drink here and there, but it was clear like if we ever caught you, like if we caught you drinking, like we kind of expect that If we caught you smoking, like you'd get in really big trouble. So in my head like cannabis was this horrible thing. And then, especially with my experience around it that met what I had heard. My relationship with it evolved. I like started to dabble and get more okay with it throughout my life, but I definitely had boundaries of like fear, of I couldn't be in a relationship with someone who used it because there was so much trauma there. Turns out, I married someone who used it regularly and forced me to deal with a lot of that and it was so much discomfort for me because I was like the fact that you do this brings up so many triggers and trauma for me. but it was a gift to have to work through it and I got to experience forming my own relationship with cannabis and at first there was a lot of anxiety because it was related to these past things and now I feel like I know how to regulate, like just the right amount to feel way less anxious, way more connected in my body and people around me. I even think able to just like see things from a wider perspective and really yeah, just in a gentle, eye-opening way. That quite honestly I think like impacts the way I engage with the world in a quite positive way. But then, on the other hand, I do have friends who, like use cannabis regularly and still kind of are like you know. Maybe it bears that same quiet dependency that alcohol might for a lot of people. So I think it's like a wide range of things but it's such a curious one to explore because, again, like, alcohol is the norm and okay to use, and then cannabis socially is now it's becoming less and less stigmatized but there can be a lot more benefits and I think I personally see it as like as on the other person shared like an earth medicine that if we use it within tension. There can be really great benefits If we use it as a dependency. You know there's another relationship, but I think I see some sense as like it's an ongoing relationship and conversation that you're having. That for me, and from a lot of experience that I've heard adjust a lot throughout your life. I want to take a moment to note another sidebar here, which is that a lot of our stigma around cannabis comes from the war on drugs. If this is something that you are curious about, go back and listen to episode 83 about the history of psychedelics with Liz Bowden, and we dive deep into the stories we've been told about different substances over time, and we're also gonna continue to dive deeper into this conversation about the relationships community members have with substances other than alcohol throughout more of our sober, curious conversations this month. So stay tuned and keep listening in the upcoming weeks.

Yes, yeah, I think it. Yeah, things change. You know, opinions change on things and as we grow we find that some things were better than others. I do think that you know people will say, well, it's a gateway drug. You know people are gonna go on to use something else. I'm sure there are people that do that, absolutely. I mean, I know there are. I think if any time you, whatever you're using, if you get really worked up because you don't have any, then it's become more of a dependency than you chose it to be. But I also think that it's no, you know, I've got some police friends and they'll say we'd much rather people are using that. Nobody's ever called to break up or, yeah, rarely ever called to break up a domestic situation because they both got high. Very different to two people getting drunk. You know they're not people on going out and causing, you know, issues in bars and stuff because they're a little hot. I mean, it's just a totally different thing and I don't know. I feel like it's in so many ways it's good for you as well. So, yeah, I have no issues with it.

Yeah.

That's all.

Well, I feel like this is a conversation I'm gonna continue to dive into, but I cannot thank you enough for sharing your time and your honesty and vulnerability and insight with us today and just being a part of this conversation.

Well, thank you so much for asking me to be here, yeah.

How can people support you in the shop? Do you wanna share a bit about 0.5?

Yes, 0.5 is down on Kerry Street in Richmond and it's. We've got about 150 products. We do have a bunch of things that do have adaptogens and new tropics and a few other things. Some car for drinks, but, yeah, anyone that's maybe so curious or even just being more mindful about their drinking, we can certainly help give alternatives. Maybe Sunday through Wednesday or Sunday through Thursday. You don't wanna drink too much. You still want that particular. Get home and have a nice drink. You can make it, but just make it zero proof and people can find us at 0.5 RVA or 0.5RVAcom. And, yeah, any questions people have they can just reach out. I'm an open book and I'll share things and help to give people some advice if they want it.

All right people come back next week to dive deeper into more sober, curious community conversations, and we're gonna dive deeper as we explore our relationships with cannabis and psilocybin and further dive into the question of what is a substance. If you haven't already, you should definitely join the Dream Team. So the Dream Team is a group of incredible people who support the operating costs of this podcast every month, and you can join for as little as $3 a month and give the gift of this podcast to the community. So all you have to do to join is click the link in the show notes, and if you aren't able to support financially at this time, you can still make a big impact by sharing your favorite episode with a friend.