Dreams Part 2: What Our Dreams Say About Grief and Relationships with Jordan Hale (119)

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;09;27
Speaker 1
Who's not tired? You're tired? No. Who's tired? I'm not. But you know the cool thing about being.

00;00;09;27 - 00;00;12;21
Speaker 2
Tired, Kelly? That means that.

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Speaker 1
You get to go to sleep.

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Speaker 2
And then when you go to sleep, that means you get to have dreams.

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Speaker 1
That was a flawless segway by Holly.

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Speaker 3
I used to think your name was Zagar. Did you know that?

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Speaker 2
No, I love that like a jaguar.

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Speaker 3
Yeah, actually. Holly Zagar. Excellent segue.

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Speaker 2
Thank you.

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Speaker 3
Because we talked with baby Angel. Love of our life. Jordan Hill for dreams, part two.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. On this episode.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. The end of the last episode, you got to hear, like, jaw drop, life altering moment when we learned about dreams in twins.

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Speaker 1
So we got to, like, follow.

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Speaker 2
Up with Jordan on that today. And we.

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Speaker 1
Also, honestly, we talked so much about.

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Speaker 2
Like, grief.

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Speaker 1
And loss.

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Speaker 2
In, like, relationships, like break ups, new relationships, all of the above in the world of dreams, which is, I don't know, something that's played out for me a lot in my life. So I was so excited to have this conversation.

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Speaker 3
Yes, we talked a lot about grief. We talked a lot about like endings of relationships and healing through trauma and things like that. But there was yeah, there was just also like, we laughed so much. I mean, I I'm just going to go ahead and say, I feel like there will absolutely.

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Speaker 1
Be a part three at some point.

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Speaker 2
Oh yeah. We're not done with Jordan.

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Speaker 3
We need.

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Speaker 2
Jordan forever and.

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Speaker 1
Always.

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Speaker 3
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
Jordan, if you're listening, you're not going anywhere. Yeah, and that's a threat and a promise. We put.

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Speaker 2
A spell on you, and now you're.

00;01;47;11 - 00;02;10;18
Speaker 1
Ours. Oh, we hope you love this. The dreams, part two, episode dreams, part two with Holly and Kelly and Jordan. Where we talk about deep stuff and nice stuff, too. Yeah. Nailed it.

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Speaker 2
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to How the Wise One Grows. Where we get curious and explore the things that help us grow. And we are back with Jordan Hale today to talk more about dreams and how they help us heal and grow. And we had Jordan for part one. And actually I just like have to name the dates of this.

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Speaker 2
We recorded part one on Halloween and we are recording part two on Friday the 13th.

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Speaker 1
Okay, right. I did not even oh my God. I was like.

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Speaker 3
Secretly.

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Speaker 2
Hoping you were going to.

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Speaker 1
Check out this date because.

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Speaker 2
I was like, it just feels.

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Speaker 1
Right. Like literally.

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Speaker 4
I unconsciously chose it because it was spooky.

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Speaker 1
You did? Yes.

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Speaker 3
We're spooky bitches. This trio.

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Speaker 1
Bitches.

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Speaker 2
Jordan, when we were last talking, the, like, jaw dropping moment that left Kelly and I, like, awestruck was when you talked about we asked like if dream if twins can have the same dreams. The answer was yes. Lost our shit.

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Speaker 1
And then you're like, I got to go back. You're like, excuse me, can you please tell me more? Yes, do.

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Speaker 2
But actually, since then I listened to your episode with the twins who had that dream experience, and that's going to be linked in the show notes. People say.

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Speaker 1
They.

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Speaker 2
Listen to it, but I wanted to relate it to this, like reoccurring dream I've had since my grandfather died. That my sister has had the similar theme, which I thought it was like. It reminded me a lot of that dream episode with the twins, and I was like, whoa, sister and I are having a little bit of that happen.

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Speaker 4
Yeah. Oh.

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Speaker 2
So ever since my grandfather died, I've had this, like reoccurring dream where the situations and circumstances change. But the like underlying theme is the same. Like it's the same. The concept is that, like, all of a sudden my grandpa is alive again and everyone's just like, you came back from the dead. Hey, like, so good to hang out again and see you.

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Speaker 2
And we, like, know that you're dead. But now you're alive and you're going to die. And and it's like, fine.

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Speaker 4
Exactly.

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Speaker 1
Yes.

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Speaker 2
And I find it so interesting. And I've had it multiple times ever since he died. And my sister said she had a dream with that same theme, too, which I find really interesting. And then when my grandmother died, this is for me. Like, I'm thinking about how dreams relate to death with these two a lot lately. Is my grandmother died, and she was, like, very much spiritual, really, the person who, like, brought in spirituality into my life and like, the way I connect to it presently.

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Speaker 2
And the only dreams I've had with her and they've been two very intense ones. One was I was on my first silent meditation retreat, and I was asleep that night. The first night there, and in my dream, there was this, like swirling evil. It was an evil energy, like an evil spirit that was coming to get me.

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Speaker 2
And it was like getting closer. It was like filling the room, the room I was in, in my dream, it was like coming to me. And then I hear my grandmother's voice as clear as day, say, I am Barbara Jackson Samuels, and you leave her alone. And then poof, it went away and I woke up. I just I was like, yes, grandma.

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Speaker 2
Grandma. Like serious guardian angel, like protector.

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Speaker 1
Powerful devil on.

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Speaker 2
Salon and Dia de Los Muertos. I had done like I lit my altar, had the candles lit, had their rituals going and doing all the things and I always go to bed. Earlier I told my husband, well, like you're supposed to leave the candle lit all night. And all the time, really for Dia de Los Muertos.

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Speaker 2
But I was like, well, turn off, like blow out the candle when you come to bed. And in my dreams that night, and just like I, it's night, it's almost no longer a dream. It's like I'm feeling the energy around me. Like I've just felt energy kind of swirling in the room again. It felt a little bit like maybe a not positive spirit coming in again.

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Speaker 2
My grandmother, like, appeared and like stopped the energy and I woke up and I was like, well, did you pull out the candles? And he was like, no. And it just really felt to me like there were spirits like coming during that time of year and again, like my grandmother was this protector. And then to like, relate it back to that dream with my grandfather.

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Speaker 2
This is just like something I started to really thinking about after we recorded. Yeah, was like my grandfather was always the more practical, like keep everyone safe logistic. My grandma was a little more like spiritual, a little more woo. And I, I almost feel like in the afterlife, like she was so ready and she is like fully passed on to the spirit world and like, that's how she shows up when I connect with her in dreams.

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Speaker 2
And I almost feel like my grandfather has been like staying in this in-between where he's like, I'm going to tend to you all until I know everyone's like taking care of and we're all together again. And like, I almost feel like he hasn't fully transition because he's still, like, caring for all of us. Yeah. So I just was getting really curious about how dreams are, like relating to grief for me.

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Speaker 2
And healing with like, death and what that might mean in our connection with the spirit world.

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Speaker 4
Yeah. It's so beautiful. Holly. Oh, my gosh, I'm. I'm extremely moved by what you're sharing. Like, I've had my own versions of what I call visitation dreams from loved ones. And I use that language because it does feel like there's an encounter that's taking place in those moments, and especially when I've heard other people describe their own versions and visitation dreams, there's often this sense of, I'm having this encounter in order to move through a certain part of my process, saying of this grief that I'm experiencing.

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Speaker 4
And so sometimes early on, after someone has passed, the themes can be very kind of literal and concrete, like, you are no longer alive and in this moment you are here and we're interacting like it's like this reiteration of the processing and what I know to be true. And then later on and or like you are positing, possibly as people move through their versions of going through the spirit realm, on the other side, then the dreams can get a little bit more abstract and a little bit more, yeah, spiritual.

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Speaker 4
And I think that that's just miraculous and remarkable. And I think it's such a gift that we can, oftentimes when we have visitation dreams, they're very vivid. And so we have to really hold on to them, which I also think is by design. But I really feel like it's like a key form of processing that we're doing.

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Speaker 4
And it has to happen in dreams and in the subconscious. Most like potent, powerful way to hold those experiences and those feelings. So I've heard lots of different stories that echo what you're sharing, and each one is, like, so precious and special and unique to the people that you're talking about. Like the way that you experience your grandmother versus your grandfather.

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Speaker 4
Like, it's just so beautiful. So I yeah, I love it like that.

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Speaker 3
You because also correct me if I'm wrong, but Holly, last time we talked about dreams and stuff, were you saying that you don't? It's not as visual as it is. Like a felt like sensory experience. So that's that's interesting that it's like there's kind of this, like narrative with your grandpa that's like, like logistical. And then with your grandma, you're like, there's a feeling like there's like a swirling energy kind of.

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Speaker 1
Yeah, it's, it's so.

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Speaker 3
Beautiful. I feel like I have had I think we talked about this a little bit, but I've had it's one of those things where, you know, like, when you're like, single and you're wanting to meet someone and people go, oh, don't worry, you'll find them right when you least expect it. Or, like, right when you stop looking and you're like, I want to die like that.

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Speaker 1
That's the word. Yeah, literally you're like.

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Speaker 3
Great, thanks. I'll just stop looking like I'll stop wanting.

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Speaker 1
That's okay. But yeah, great thing that's so helpful. I feel like it's the.

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Speaker 3
Same thing where I like after my grandmother passed, I was like, okay, like, I really want a visitation dream.

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Speaker 1
And. And then it's totally.

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Speaker 3
That thing where I was like, it almost felt like going to bed on Christmas Eve as a kid, where I was like.

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Speaker 1
Ooh, like, I really hope tonight's the night, like this is going to happen.

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Speaker 3
And then of course, I would wake up and running theme with me in dreams. I would wake up and feel like angry or like.

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Speaker 1
What the.

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Speaker 3
Hell? Because I was like, I didn't either. I didn't dream anything. Or is it possible that I did have like a really meaningful, important dream and I like am waking up and I can't remember it and it's just like a waste. And then of course, you know, as you're talking with other people, like, you know, it was it was obviously not just my grandma.

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Speaker 3
I have two sisters and then my parents and like, I would like, wake up and be in my own kind of like, bummed place of like, I'm still not really getting anything from her. And then like, come downstairs and my sister's like, I had the craziest dream about my mom last night. And I'm like, what the hell?

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Speaker 1
Are you okay? How come you get it? Like, yeah, but it's so.

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Speaker 3
I don't know, I do. I, I love the idea that that is kind of something where it's like it is really attached to how you're processing your loss and the grief and the just, the phase of it that you're in because you can't you can't rush that.

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Speaker 1
Stuff at all.

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Speaker 3
It's really annoying.

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Speaker 4
But and I have to I have to imagine that because I, you know, a personal belief of mine is that there is consciousness on the other side. And I have to believe that that consciousness has a sense of knowing in terms of like, for whom a dream experience is really useful at a certain given time. Versus for others, there may be other ways that they're connecting and making their presence known and felt.

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Speaker 4
That may be just more appropriate for some reason that we don't understand. I don't know, that's just my little $0.02, because I feel the same way, actually, Kelly, I wish like my grandmother who passed and it was Julie, she passed in 2022 and we were extremely close. And I have wished and wished for like a solid visitation dream from her like she's she's been in dreams of mine before, but in a very like I'm just kind of hanging back here.

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Speaker 4
Like I'm just keeping an eye on what's going on. But less of that, like strong encounter. But I have encountered her in other ways. We have signs, that I see in the world that let me know that she's present. One of our signs is a ladybug. I have all kinds of crazy ladybug like moments and stories.

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Speaker 4
But, yeah, I, I have wished for, like, a strong visitation dream from her, and I have to believe that. It's just. That's not. It's not the moment for that right now. Or there's other ways we're connecting right now, or even there's other ways that she is choosing to, like, show up. Yeah. I kind of hone her skills of, like, connection, you know?

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Speaker 1
So anyway, that. Yeah, I think that's a.

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Speaker 2
Very cool, like, surrender that we have to give to the dream world, too. And I was like, I was talking to a friend about this last night. Actually, her grandfather isn't doing well. And she was, like, hoping for him to make it to her wedding, but also, like, you know. But I trust that, like, Mother Nature knows the timing when is right.

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Speaker 2
And we were talking about how like, yeah, you can have it's really good to have a wish for something, but then also trust in surrender to something deeper. Yeah. And I feel like dreams give us a deep space to explore that. Like we can wish to have these dreams or these like, lucid dreams and these experiences and really profound ways.

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Speaker 2
But it is a surrender at the same time. And you're like, you know, you can have that intention going into it, but then it's up to something greater to see what unfolds in that space.

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Speaker 4
Yes, it's a co creative process. I feel that way about like magic and manifestation in general. Like this is not me. Like exerting my will. This is me. Like offering a possibility and then having, you know, the universe, spirit, whatever. Like meet me in that place where we co-create something. It might not be what I imagined. It might be something else.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 3
It is. That's that's always been something that resonates with me so hard. You, like, specifically said the word surrender, Holly. And I think that's so key is like having this, like, I am someone that is spiritual. I don't I was raised in a Christian church, and, like, there are certain things that I was like, that doesn't really land for me.

00;16;09;03 - 00;16;35;07
Speaker 3
It never really has. But like, I also was never someone that was going to be totally like, atheist and be like, we just everything is like, we make the world what it is like. There's always been something else for me. I just haven't quite like, you know, I don't, I don't know, I'm like, it's just it's just out there and it's mysterious and but you can, like you were saying, Jordan, like you can work with it and you can be like, this is what I want for my life.

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Speaker 3
These are the steps I'm taking. And then also being open to be like, show me if there is a better way.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 3
And I know that there are people who hear stuff like that and it makes them freak out because they're like there's so much that we don't understand and we have to understand it. And I'm kind of like, I don't know I just I love, I love that I'm like, yeah, what who am I to try and control everything?

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Speaker 1
Like,

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Speaker 3
I don't know what's going on out there.

00;17;01;15 - 00;17;03;08
Speaker 1
Like, you know.

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Speaker 4
I, I agree, Kelly, as a survivor of religious trauma, I am now so comforted by like, the mystery and like the not having to have it all figured out is just like a balm for my soul.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 2
More and more people have conversations about, like, what do you think it's like? And I've kind of gotten to the point where, like.

00;17;23;26 - 00;17;24;24
Speaker 1
I have to.

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Speaker 2
Figure it.

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Speaker 1
Out. You know, I just.

00;17;27;00 - 00;17;38;07
Speaker 2
Don't think I can in this life. I don't think that's the goal or the work of this life. I think I'm just supposed to be here now, and it's something that my mind can't understand. So yeah.

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Speaker 1
And that's okay.

00;17;38;25 - 00;17;40;22
Speaker 2
I'm open to the mystery. Yeah.

00;17;40;25 - 00;17;41;25
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;17;41;28 - 00;18;06;20
Speaker 3
Because also I'm like, how boring would life be if you knew everything? Also how overwhelming would it be if you knew about it? But like, I just feel like there's so much that I'm like, you know what? Literally anything could happen. And I could be, it's possible that as of later today, I could I could think back to our conversation and be like, wow, you had no idea what was coming in two hours.

00;18;06;22 - 00;18;18;07
Speaker 3
You know, like, it's just, I think it's so beautiful.

00;18;18;10 - 00;18;45;15
Speaker 2
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00;18;45;18 - 00;19;10;24
Speaker 2
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00;19;10;26 - 00;19;15;10
Speaker 3
Okay, this is a this is a segue into something that Jordan you brought up last time.

00;19;16;00 - 00;19;22;12
Speaker 3
You said that you and your husband and I correct myself. Maybe we're not married yet or were married.

00;19;22;14 - 00;19;24;13
Speaker 4
No, we were not married yet. We were just dating,

00;19;24;20 - 00;19;26;13
Speaker 3
When you had your like joint.

00;19;26;13 - 00;19;27;27
Speaker 4
Yes, yes, yes.

00;19;27;27 - 00;19;29;10
Speaker 3
Your dream visitations.

00;19;29;10 - 00;19;30;00
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00;19;30;02 - 00;19;31;06
Speaker 2
That brought your daughter.

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Speaker 4
So in the long run. Yeah. My daughter, who's here now like close to ten years later.

00;19;38;11 - 00;19;38;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;19;38;20 - 00;19;41;02
Speaker 3
Oh, wow. I didn't realize it was that long ago.

00;19;41;03 - 00;19;48;06
Speaker 4
Right there. Yeah, we were, like, pretty nearly dating, which was why it was, like, kind of a vulnerable thing to, like, bring up.

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Speaker 2
Like, you brought it up first. How did that. Well.

00;19;51;24 - 00;20;00;14
Speaker 4
I was, I was lucky in that I didn't have to get too vulnerable. My little Scorpio heart loves to guard herself.

00;20;00;17 - 00;20;01;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;20;01;11 - 00;20;22;18
Speaker 4
But. So he had gone on this, you know, vision quest with his friends to go take mushrooms in the forest. And when he got back, he was the one who was telling me about his little, visitation. I guess we could call it probably, the way I would, I would conceptualize it now is it was a little visitation for my daughter, for him.

00;20;22;20 - 00;20;33;18
Speaker 4
And so he shared that he had had that vision. And then I chimed in like I had a dream about the exact same thing. So yeah, he went first.

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Speaker 1
Wow.

00;20;34;11 - 00;20;50;28
Speaker 3
I feel like I would like it. I truly I'm like, it would be game over for me if I were dating someone and I was, yes, I'm really into this person. And they're like, I had a dream that that we had a daughter and I like, I saw her, I would be like, especially if I had the same dream.

00;20;50;28 - 00;20;55;09
Speaker 3
I would be like, well, like, what are we doing? Let's get going. Like.

00;20;55;11 - 00;20;58;28
Speaker 1
I'm like, I completely that is.

00;20;58;28 - 00;21;21;20
Speaker 4
The way that that moment landed for me is that it helped me really like feel and trust that like there was something real here between us that we were building towards. I didn't see it as just like a funny coincidence. I really felt it as like a sign. And then. Yeah, like, here we are with our little baby.

00;21;21;21 - 00;21;25;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's so beautiful. Especially because.

00;21;25;22 - 00;21;33;25
Speaker 3
Like, early days, that's like that. A promise to your husband. Because. Can you imagine being like, I had a dream new person that I'm dating? They know.

00;21;33;28 - 00;21;34;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;21;34;14 - 00;21;37;22
Speaker 3
You were there. And also we had a kid. And like, the other person is just like.

00;21;37;27 - 00;21;38;18
Speaker 1
Okay.

00;21;38;18 - 00;21;39;20
Speaker 3
Like asking for the door.

00;21;39;20 - 00;21;41;13
Speaker 1
Behind them.

00;21;41;16 - 00;21;43;19
Speaker 3
Like, I forgot, I have a meeting now.

00;21;43;20 - 00;21;44;10
Speaker 1
I have to come.

00;21;44;13 - 00;21;55;16
Speaker 4
Like, I know it's so true. That could have gone, like, very sideways, but I think we I think we both felt it like. I think we both were like, okay, there's something we're supposed to be paying attention to.

00;21;55;18 - 00;21;56;02
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;21;56;08 - 00;22;10;25
Speaker 4
You know, I'm I'm like, picture. I'm like flashing back to the exact place we were when we were having the conversation. We were at this fabulous restaurant in Los Angeles where they have brown paper on the tables, and you can color with cream.

00;22;10;27 - 00;22;12;08
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I remember.

00;22;12;08 - 00;22;15;08
Speaker 4
I was like, coloring with crayons while we were talking.

00;22;15;08 - 00;22;16;23
Speaker 1
About it.

00;22;16;25 - 00;22;18;06
Speaker 2
I love your love.

00;22;18;08 - 00;22;20;06
Speaker 1
Literally.

00;22;20;09 - 00;22;41;12
Speaker 3
The imagery of, like, coloring on your, like, table at a restaurant that's like, that's like such a fun, freeing child. Like, creating and having this kind of like, open channel with the person you're seeing, where you're, like, feeling that comfortable and playful and whatever. I'm just like, that's what I want. Like.

00;22;41;14 - 00;22;43;00
Speaker 4
Yes.

00;22;43;02 - 00;22;44;28
Speaker 1
I love that so much.

00;22;45;00 - 00;23;11;00
Speaker 2
It does make me think to how, like listening we talked before about like how you feel your grandmother and different things in in the world, but also how like listening to, like the subtleties of our dreams can also be so important to like you shared. Like how that, like helped you see like, okay, there's really something in this relationship I can maybe like let myself open up, let myself in and deepen into this.

00;23;11;03 - 00;23;36;00
Speaker 2
And like, I feel like we're always looking for signs to help us make a choice or grow or do things in certain directions. And I think our dreams can be a space that we can really explore for that to of like, how can this guide me through what's next? Or guide me with what's here and help me call on some things that I might not have otherwise?

00;23;36;00 - 00;24;00;29
Speaker 4
Yes, well, because there's real wisdom that gets us outside of the kind of mental cobwebs of like our own anxiety and hang ups and the things we just carry around all day, every day. In our dreams, I think we get to transcend some of that stuff. And there's this just like pure wisdom, pure, sort of like calm, knowing that we can access more.

00;24;01;01 - 00;24;07;26
Speaker 4
That just gives us the realness. It just gives us the unvarnished truth. So often I think.

00;24;07;29 - 00;24;12;05
Speaker 2
We're talking a lot about dreams with, like, love. And like.

00;24;12;05 - 00;24;12;22
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;24;12;22 - 00;24;49;18
Speaker 2
In that positive way. And I have to, like, flip the switch because every breakup I have ever had, every person I have ever shared, like an intimacy where, it lives on in my dream life, like a lot of people who I haven't been able to have, closure with or like connection continued connection with in a way that I, I guess maybe part of me like wishes, like I feel those things like play out in my dream world and healing and like, continuing and healing that relationship with them.

00;24;49;18 - 00;25;17;29
Speaker 2
Yeah. Until it's like done like some people. It's like, Like there's one person I was like, I have not dreamed about that person, and I don't know when. And that's amazing. And there's others where it's like, we still play out in Dream World in this really, like healing lovely way. And I think on some level it's it's just so curious to me that and something I like welcome in of like all things don't need to be said verbally on this plane.

00;25;17;29 - 00;25;29;02
Speaker 2
Like all relationships can play out in different ways. And for me, it's healing to be able to like, continue and find closure to relationships through dreams.

00;25;29;04 - 00;26;03;05
Speaker 4
Absolutely. Like I have the exact same situation, where there's a former, you know, I don't want to call him an ex because he was one of the kindest, most loving relationships I ever had in my life with my high school boyfriend. And, I had had several, you know, really damaging experiences with, like, early kind of versions of, like, love and sex, like really harmful stuff that had befallen me, unfortunately.

00;26;03;07 - 00;26;29;24
Speaker 4
And, this relationship was so healing, like it was so loving, kind, gentle. And, it ended just for like, you know, logistical reasons. We were high schoolers going off to different colleges and just our, our paths, revering in different directions. And, that relationship lives on in my dreams as well, and continues to sort of like progress and evolve.

00;26;29;24 - 00;26;43;27
Speaker 4
And it's so fascinating. And I actually reached out to him, last year and just like sent him a very brief note, just letting him know that, like, you were just like such a healing, positive force in my life. Like, I'm so grateful.

00;26;44;00 - 00;26;44;18
Speaker 1
And that was it.

00;26;44;18 - 00;26;48;27
Speaker 4
Like, that was all I needed to say. It was just like, I just need you to, like, know that.

00;26;50;19 - 00;27;10;24
Speaker 4
He wrote me back like a super sweet note. It was like, oh, my God, that's amazing. Thank you. But I do think it's kind of like what we were saying about grief. It's like these forms of love, I think, just never end. I think that they just continue. And the energy of that love doesn't ever go away.

00;27;10;24 - 00;27;47;20
Speaker 4
It just sort of like shape shifts and morphs alongside us for the rest of our lives. That's how I see it. And then, yes, like you said on the flip side, I also have recurring figures in my dreams of relationships that were harmful and the way that I, my dream self, is learning to, like, speak differently towards those people and assert myself differently towards those people than I did in real life, and to sort of have those healing experiences of like showing up for myself differently in dreams than I, than I did in reality.

00;27;47;22 - 00;27;48;12
Speaker 4
And so, yeah, it's.

00;27;48;12 - 00;27;48;17
Speaker 1
Just.

00;27;48;17 - 00;27;51;08
Speaker 4
Amazing. I just like, yeah.

00;27;51;10 - 00;27;52;08
Speaker 1
I just I.

00;27;52;08 - 00;28;05;15
Speaker 4
Think it's remarkable how, how knowledgeable and wise our, our subconscious really is it just the more I hear about it, it just goes on and on and on. It's just amazing.

00;28;05;17 - 00;28;13;24
Speaker 3
It's so wild. Also, speaking of your your, daughter's visitation dream with your husband who's on shrooms.

00;28;13;27 - 00;28;16;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I am obsessed.

00;28;16;13 - 00;28;21;05
Speaker 3
I may have mentioned this last time, but I've been listening to How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan.

00;28;21;05 - 00;28;25;01
Speaker 1
Yes. On audiobook. Oh, it's so good. So I'm.

00;28;25;05 - 00;28;33;13
Speaker 3
So obsessed. Like, literally my entire family is now just, like, constantly like, oh my God, here she goes again. Because I'm like, did you.

00;28;33;13 - 00;28;34;18
Speaker 1
Guys know this.

00;28;34;18 - 00;28;35;16
Speaker 3
Fact about.

00;28;35;20 - 00;28;36;27
Speaker 4
There's more? There's more.

00;28;36;28 - 00;28;38;12
Speaker 1
I'm like, wait, oh my God, I.

00;28;38;12 - 00;29;20;27
Speaker 3
Did not know. But like, I it's so interesting because I'm, I'm like fascinated by like the use of psychedelics in kind of in like unlearning and like kind of rewiring things and facing trauma specifically. One thing that I thought was so interesting as I've been listening to this book is specifically they talk about a lot like basically, I think I think that at one point Michael Pollan was saying, like everyone he interviewed who has either gone through a, some sort of psychedelic psychedelic trip or journey or has guided them, they always talk about how you will face something at least once.

00;29;20;27 - 00;29;41;20
Speaker 3
That is seems overwhelming, seems really dark. It might seem like a demon. It might seem like a wall that you're up against, and you have to surrender. And you have to like, ask it what it's trying to show you. And if you do that immediately, almost every time, the anxiety will melt away. You'll be fine. But like, it's that.

00;29;41;20 - 00;29;53;12
Speaker 3
It's that fear of like, I, I want to control this and I don't want to I don't want to look at this thing. Yeah. And as we talked about last time on our on our previous dreams episode.

00;29;53;12 - 00;29;58;17
Speaker 1
Yes. Go back and read the link in the show notes.

00;29;58;19 - 00;30;16;23
Speaker 3
We talked about, like, having that, that I had had a dream surrounding my, the person that I deal with with a bunch of, like, PTSD dreams specifically, and that I had had a dream where I, like, screamed at them and was like.

00;30;16;26 - 00;30;18;18
Speaker 1
This is over. You can't treat me this way.

00;30;18;18 - 00;30;40;00
Speaker 3
And I was like, victorious and felt so euphoric and then woke up and of course, like it hadn't actually changed anything. But since then and since our last episode, I, I continue to have dreams where this person is in it. And, you know, they're not all they're not all victorious. They're some of them are really just frustrating.

00;30;40;00 - 00;31;05;02
Speaker 3
And I'm like, I can't figure out what to do, but you're just still here. And but I think that I have really been thinking a lot, especially because of our last episode and kind of in conjunction listening to how to Change Your Mind, where I've been like, you know what? No, this is this is an ongoing journey. And so no one dream needs to be like the destination where I fix this.

00;31;05;02 - 00;31;24;02
Speaker 3
It's just more of unfolding. Yes. So it's like, okay, let's see where this one takes me. Until. And Jordan, you pointed this out last time, like a lot of dreams, you wake up and you're like, that wasn't even nearly finished. Like I was in the middle of this thing. It was happening. And then I woke up and it was like, I've had that.

00;31;24;02 - 00;31;48;20
Speaker 3
But I. I did have a dream, like recently, since our last episode where I literally was in this, like, bizarre, kind of like cubicle library type room. And I saw that this person was there and I like it was one of those things where every time I would just catch sight of them, they would like, look towards me and I would, like, duck around the corner.

00;31;48;20 - 00;31;51;04
Speaker 3
Sorry. I hit my microphone like.

00;31;51;06 - 00;31;52;06
Speaker 1
Know. I was like, action.

00;31;52;07 - 00;32;10;02
Speaker 3
I know I was like frantically like I was like, oh, I can't be seen by them. Like they can't know I'm here. I'm not ready to deal with that. And so I was literally running away and like, hiding. And at one point in the dream, I was literally in this space where there was nowhere to go. And they had walked into the room and it was only the two of us in the room.

00;32;10;02 - 00;32;30;22
Speaker 3
So I was literally like, pressed up against the wall, like up against just being like, if they turn on the light, they're going to see me and there's nothing I can't go anywhere. And I was trying so hard not to be seen. And I literally in my dream thought like, you have to surrender. What is it trying to show you?

00;32;30;23 - 00;32;48;25
Speaker 3
Like. And I literally it felt like the longest thing in the world, but I literally was looking down, like pressed up against the wall and I like, so slowly brought my eyes up and met their eyes. And it was just this moment and it the, the crazy thing is, it's not like I'm here now being like. And that was it.

00;32;48;25 - 00;33;02;27
Speaker 3
There was this resolution, but it was just a moment of like, oh, that was a lot. I have not met their eyes in a long time. I have not looked at them. I have not looked at this situation directly. And that felt.

00;33;02;29 - 00;33;04;08
Speaker 1
Me. That's so.

00;33;04;08 - 00;33;05;00
Speaker 3
Important.

00;33;05;00 - 00;33;06;16
Speaker 4
Huge step.

00;33;06;18 - 00;33;09;08
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I don't know, it was just kind of.

00;33;09;08 - 00;33;10;19
Speaker 2
Like.

00;33;10;21 - 00;33;12;02
Speaker 1
It's crazy.

00;33;12;02 - 00;33;32;22
Speaker 4
And that's also Kelly. I mean, you had there's some lucidity in what you're describing, right. Where like you were able to use those skills of like blending the conscious with the subconscious to like bring in a bit of an intention to a dream that I've been working on. Right? Absolutely. That's like taking it to the next level.

00;33;32;25 - 00;33;39;12
Speaker 1
Oh, yes. We dream the warrior. Yes.

00;33;39;14 - 00;34;07;07
Speaker 3
I'm so honored. I feel so excited because it's like you should have lucidity. Last time we were talking about that and I was like, I'm so scared to actively try because it feels somehow like I will be manipulating what the dream world is trying to show me if I am fully, again, like fully in control of it. But also this is it's interesting, like having the conversation we've had about like, but what if you can never be fully in control of it because it is the dream world.

00;34;07;07 - 00;34;08;15
Speaker 3
So like.

00;34;08;18 - 00;34;08;26
Speaker 1
You.

00;34;08;26 - 00;34;42;15
Speaker 3
Can try to bring it. Let's see what happens if I do this. Let's see what happens if I make eye contact with this person. Let's see what happens if you know. And that's just I feel like that was such a gift. And I feel like I just feel genuinely so, so much of gratitude for you both, because I really felt like that was something that I was like listening to this book and actively thinking a lot about my subconscious and what's going on, and like going to therapy and talking about this situation and then having this conversation where we're like having fun and also we're like.

00;34;42;15 - 00;34;44;13
Speaker 1
So how do I heal.

00;34;44;13 - 00;34;45;16
Speaker 3
Myself with my.

00;34;45;19 - 00;34;48;05
Speaker 4
Deepest, darkest, most intense ways to heal?

00;34;48;08 - 00;34;51;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So I'm just like that.

00;34;51;01 - 00;34;52;21
Speaker 3
That felt like something that I was like, oh my.

00;34;52;21 - 00;34;55;06
Speaker 1
God, I can't wait. I feel I feel really proud that I like.

00;34;55;06 - 00;35;05;23
Speaker 3
Had this moment of like I looked at them in the face instead of running away. And that was all I needed to do. And we'll see what happens next time. But it's like on this episode of dreams.

00;35;05;27 - 00;35;09;15
Speaker 1
I want to say so.

00;35;09;17 - 00;35;40;24
Speaker 2
So happy and like, so proud I am of you for like that work that happened in the dream, but also just looking at like all the work you've done outside of exactly to get to that, like the therapy, the listening to the resources to having these really like deep, vulnerable and playful conversations and like weaving all of those elements and letting dreams be a space where you can integrate some of those ways in to face that in a space that feels safe and supported in that moment.

00;35;40;26 - 00;35;42;14
Speaker 2
Like good work.

00;35;42;15 - 00;36;07;24
Speaker 4
Thank you. Yeah. Great work. Those are serious. My favorite kinds of stories to hear is that like, wow. As I've started paying attention to the dream world, my subconscious, this very clear form of healing has started unfolding in my life. That makes me incredibly happy. That's why I do the work that I do, and that's why I'm so glad you guys invited me to be here with you.

00;36;07;24 - 00;36;13;17
Speaker 4
Because you guys are dream warriors. You're doing the work too, and it's so beautiful. It's fabulous.

00;36;13;17 - 00;36;17;22
Speaker 2
Thanks for being our dream guide warrior. Literally. What is like I.

00;36;17;22 - 00;36;19;26
Speaker 1
Don't know what that lead warrior.

00;36;19;26 - 00;36;21;02
Speaker 2
Called.

00;36;21;05 - 00;36;26;10
Speaker 4
I don't know about that, but, man, I'm just right here with you guys. Yeah.

00;36;26;12 - 00;36;29;13
Speaker 1
He's actually carrying Captain Dream. Captain Wade.

00;36;29;13 - 00;36;31;09
Speaker 3
I love that dream, captain.

00;36;31;16 - 00;36;32;03
Speaker 4
Oh, dream.

00;36;32;03 - 00;36;33;29
Speaker 3
That's like giving, like, capture the flag.

00;36;33;29 - 00;36;38;18
Speaker 1
But we're all summer camps. Yes, yes.

00;36;38;18 - 00;36;48;00
Speaker 4
Oh, my God, that's the first time I've ever been given any, like, slightly athletic, title for anything in my life. I'm, like, the least athletic, coordinated person in the world.

00;36;48;02 - 00;36;50;06
Speaker 2
You are the most athletic dream person.

00;36;50;06 - 00;36;55;27
Speaker 1
Yes, there is you. There you have it. The end. Dream gymnastics. The dream gymnast. Yep.

00;36;56;04 - 00;37;23;10
Speaker 3
Okay, I do want to ask you a question that came to me when we were talking about, it kind of started last episode. We were talking about your origin in going through the psychodynamic therapy training and, like, always having that passion for dreams. And I'm curious if you have experienced this, particularly in early days of you like getting into kind of like experimenting with how do I use my dreaming for healing?

00;37;23;10 - 00;37;47;15
Speaker 3
And in this therapy practice, we talked about always looking for signs and kind of like utilizing like, oh, the dream. The dream showed me this and that means this thing or whatever. I'm curious on maybe a more lighthearted or maybe a serious note if you have ever taken it too far, if you were like, if you ever went through a period of being like, it's a this.

00;37;47;15 - 00;37;51;28
Speaker 3
So it has to mean. So I have to do that. Like, because I feel like that's something I would 100% do.

00;37;52;00 - 00;38;12;16
Speaker 4
I know what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. I certainly, you know, I think this is also a pretty common theme for a lot of folks. I certainly went through a phase during the pandemic where I was coming into this more sort of spiritual way of being and of seeing the world. And I remember at the time I was looking for signs like, literally everywhere.

00;38;12;23 - 00;38;30;01
Speaker 4
And I could feel that, yeah, it was getting to be a little bit of, a little bit obsessive. Like one example I can think of right now is that I was having a lot of fun learning about my local bird population and like, divination practices that involve birds. And so.

00;38;30;01 - 00;38;31;15
Speaker 1
I remember at the time, like.

00;38;31;15 - 00;38;36;29
Speaker 4
Literally every time I would see a bird, I would like, stop what I was doing, write down exactly like what it was, look it up. What does this.

00;38;36;29 - 00;38;41;08
Speaker 1
Mean? To eventually do this, like, thing with birds.

00;38;41;10 - 00;38;43;23
Speaker 4
Eventually I was like, y'all, there are just a lot.

00;38;43;23 - 00;38;45;01
Speaker 1
Of crows.

00;38;45;06 - 00;38;56;01
Speaker 4
In my neighborhood, and they're molting their feathers in the summer. And it's okay. It doesn't mean that every time I find a crow feather, there's, like some special message for me.

00;38;57;08 - 00;39;19;15
Speaker 4
So it's funny because you have to hold the nuance, right? It's like sometimes a moment with a bird, you feel that synchronicity, you feel that meaningful coincidence. But not every single time. Okay? Like, birds are just very common species. They're everywhere. So I like to meet in the middle. I like to stay open but not get will not get too obsessed with it, you know.

00;39;19;21 - 00;39;24;05
Speaker 4
So I remember I was I was taking it a little too far back then.

00;39;24;08 - 00;39;37;18
Speaker 2
It reminds me of what you said in our last episode, too, about how, like, you know, some dreams are just like processing the weird shit that happened that day. Like, Kelly is like macaroni and cheese fire dream.

00;39;37;18 - 00;39;40;09
Speaker 1
You know, it's like, maybe that's not my.

00;39;40;09 - 00;39;41;12
Speaker 2
Deepest, darkest.

00;39;41;12 - 00;39;43;18
Speaker 1
Healing, but maybe.

00;39;43;18 - 00;39;45;10
Speaker 2
There's just Mac and cheese on my.

00;39;45;10 - 00;39;47;04
Speaker 1
Mind. You have to do which like.

00;39;47;04 - 00;39;50;00
Speaker 4
Oh, yes. Yeah. Which, by the way, constant.

00;39;50;01 - 00;39;51;28
Speaker 1
Who among us? Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

00;39;51;28 - 00;40;01;15
Speaker 4
No, I completely, completely agree. Not every dream carries that real significance and that's okay. Sometimes they're just silly and weird and random.

00;40;01;17 - 00;40;02;29
Speaker 3
Oh yeah, I love those dreams too.

00;40;02;29 - 00;40;04;08
Speaker 1
Which is fun, right?

00;40;04;10 - 00;40;13;12
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's so fun. It's so fun to have, like, the kind of dream where you wake up and you're like just immediately in hysterics because I'm like, that was.

00;40;13;12 - 00;40;14;19
Speaker 1
So.

00;40;14;21 - 00;40;37;22
Speaker 3
Weird. Like, my brain is so weird. So Holly and my mutual friend Emma, who has been on the podcast before as well and will be again, she and I were roommates in Nashville for many, many, many years and I feel like there were so many times where I would wake up and immediately, like, come down to the kitchen and be like, here's what just happened in my dream.

00;40;37;22 - 00;40;39;04
Speaker 3
And she would just be like.

00;40;39;06 - 00;40;45;11
Speaker 1
What is it like to live in your brain? Like, that's not here's a little glimmer. Yeah, literally.

00;40;45;11 - 00;40;46;10
Speaker 3
No. It was like, oh, that was.

00;40;46;10 - 00;40;46;23
Speaker 1
Just.

00;40;46;26 - 00;40;52;04
Speaker 3
That was just a normal Tuesday night dream for me. But I guess we dream in very different ways.

00;40;52;04 - 00;40;54;08
Speaker 1
Yeah, I love that so much.

00;40;54;08 - 00;41;15;08
Speaker 2
I've been like doing a lot of work with like creativity and like creative wellness. And it's really like the importance of play and all of that too. And like so often, I think as artists, as people, we're always trying to like figure things out and have this deep meaning. But we like need space for that, just like childlike play.

00;41;15;08 - 00;41;18;12
Speaker 2
And I think dreams can be a really profound place.

00;41;18;12 - 00;41;19;24
Speaker 1
To just.

00;41;19;27 - 00;41;29;26
Speaker 2
Play. Yeah. And just let yourself see what's there and let that be an outlet for your creativity to, like, enliven and unfold.

00;41;29;28 - 00;41;30;21
Speaker 1
Oh, I love.

00;41;30;21 - 00;42;00;13
Speaker 4
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the more I heal and the more I work towards like finding a more integrated, peaceful way to move through the world, the more I learn that I have to be able to let myself let go, play, enjoy myself. Like, I mean, that's been a huge part of my work and Al-Anon, groups. And just like learning to enjoy myself and let myself take the time to do that, my God.

00;42;00;15 - 00;42;28;26
Speaker 4
Because so often you, you know, when you're extremely codependent, you walk around with the weight of the world on your shoulders all the time. You feel like it's always on you to be doing something meaningful and important and making a difference. And so it's funny because some of the most, like profound lucid dreaming experiences I've had have been purely play like pure enjoyment, pure like flying in a beautiful land across the sky.

00;42;28;26 - 00;42;47;02
Speaker 4
And just like having the most joyful, playful time or like swimming with dolphins and just like having the most Lisa Frank like moments, you know? And so that is, that is healing like, that is how we move forward. It's not frivolous. It's essential.

00;42;47;02 - 00;43;15;29
Speaker 3
Oh, also, I think that goes really well hand in hand with like, the, the, I don't remember, of course, the actual like name for it, but like the different types of, of rest that we need that we've like, you know, been so I mean, as humans for so long just been like, okay, you need this amount of sleep physically per night or whatever, but like, not not kind of getting that like, but you need social rest too.

00;43;15;29 - 00;43;37;11
Speaker 3
And you need like active rest where you're like, you're letting your mind, you know, all of these different things. And I feel like it's. Yeah, when you have, like when you have like a good sleep, but you specifically have a dream where you've just been playful or relaxing. It's like a whole different level of recharged. When I wake up the next morning, I'm like, oh man.

00;43;37;13 - 00;43;40;11
Speaker 3
Like straight up. I was just like flying over the sea.

00;43;40;11 - 00;43;42;02
Speaker 1
Like I'm good.

00;43;42;02 - 00;43;43;28
Speaker 3
Like, bring on work today. I can do.

00;43;43;28 - 00;43;46;18
Speaker 1
It. So true.

00;43;46;20 - 00;43;49;24
Speaker 2
Well, we're coming up at time again, but I can't believe.

00;43;49;26 - 00;43;52;13
Speaker 1
I know somehow. I know Jordan.

00;43;52;13 - 00;43;55;03
Speaker 2
We are far too obsessed with you. And just thank.

00;43;55;07 - 00;43;55;27
Speaker 1
You guys.

00;43;55;27 - 00;44;12;15
Speaker 2
So much for teaching us all about dreams and how they help us heal from, like, the hardest things, like death and trauma to even just like, the lightest, playful, creative healing moments. Thank you so much for doing that. You do.

00;44;12;17 - 00;44;16;02
Speaker 1
Big fans. Big fans of. Yes, right.

00;44;16;04 - 00;44;22;11
Speaker 4
We know this. Yeah. More more of this in any way, shape or form. Please agree. Like yes.

00;44;22;12 - 00;44;23;07
Speaker 3
Hard agree.

00;44;23;10 - 00;44;31;20
Speaker 1
So the created.

00;44;31;23 - 00;44;35;06
Speaker 2
So that was our talk with Jordan. Our dreams part two.

00;44;35;13 - 00;44;39;17
Speaker 3
Our dreams part two with our dream guide angel. What did we call her? Our dream.

00;44;39;17 - 00;44;40;08
Speaker 1
Captain.

00;44;40;14 - 00;44;43;17
Speaker 2
Our dream captain. Our dream dream, captain.

00;44;43;17 - 00;44;47;18
Speaker 3
Our dream dream. Captain Jordan. Hail did it once again.

00;44;47;21 - 00;45;03;04
Speaker 2
We love her and we will certainly bring her back. So if you have more questions about dreams, send them in. We want to know. We want reasons to talk to Jordan again. So send us all the dream things, all the dream thoughts. We're ready to always dive into this with Jordan.

00;45;03;11 - 00;45;16;25
Speaker 3
Yeah. What's your weirdest dream you've ever had? Used. You used to have a dream that you're still trying to make sense of. Like, do you have a question that we probably also have that we didn't think of to ask Jordan? And we'll do it on part three?

00;45;16;25 - 00;45;35;22
Speaker 2
Yes. Please send your dream questions in to us. You can even send your dream experiences to us as a voice memo. Or if you go to our website, How the Wise one grows.com/voice mail, there will be a link in the show notes. You can leave us a sweet little voice memo of your dream. Your dream questions. We want to hear it.

00;45;35;22 - 00;45;49;08
Speaker 2
We want to listen to it. You can also send us an email. I'll link that in the show notes as well. Or you can just send us a DM on Instagram at how the wise one grows. So do all the things. Let's hang. Let's talk dreams.

00;45;49;08 - 00;45;50;02
Speaker 3
Yes.

00;45;50;05 - 00;46;09;13
Speaker 2
And just a little teaser for the next episode we have coming out. Kelly and I talk all about your identity as a creative. Like what is your creative identity? How do you work and move through life as a creative? So we also want to know your thoughts around that or any other topics you want us to cover.

00;46;09;15 - 00;46;25;06
Speaker 2
We're always an open door. Send us your thoughts. Send us what you want to talk about here about, I think even Spotify as a speed feature for you to like, comment and leave stuff there. So if that's easiest for you, do it and we'll look out for your love notes and create the coolest podcast with you.

00;46;25;09 - 00;46;35;11
Speaker 1
Yay! Go team! Yay!