Dreams, Healing & the Subconscious with Psychotherapist Jordan Hale (118)

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:05:17
Speaker 1
Well, that was the coolest conversation I've ever had in my life.

00:00:05:19 - 00:00:35:14
Speaker 2
I literally could not agree more. And we are so excited to share this episode with you today. So today you're going to get to hear from the sweet baby angel Jordan Hale, who is a licensed therapist, a writer and host, and creator of the Psyche Magic podcast. If you haven't listened, add it to your Q right now. She interviews artists and healing arts practitioners on the pod about tapping into the subconscious for creative inspiration and self-discovery.

00:00:35:16 - 00:00:54:06
Speaker 2
She incorporates things like youngin dreamwork and symbolic archetypal exploration of the tarot. And in today's episode, Kelly and I just got to, like, dive in and ask the questions we've always had and wanted to know the answers to about dreams. Yes, she didn't disappoint.

00:00:54:07 - 00:01:05:13
Speaker 1
Not at all. Like, literally to the point where I feel like right in the last moment I was like, oh, I've always wondered about this. And then she was like, get your minds blown. Here you go.

00:01:05:15 - 00:01:08:05
Speaker 2
It was a mic drop moment at the end of the episode.

00:01:08:07 - 00:01:09:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:01:09:14 - 00:01:17:18
Speaker 2
So we're really excited for you to get tucked in and listen to the Sweetest Dreams episode of your life.

00:01:17:22 - 00:01:20:16
Speaker 1
Holly and Kelly talk to Jordan.

00:01:20:16 - 00:01:31:01
Speaker 3
Heller about our dreams.

00:01:31:03 - 00:01:33:07
Speaker 2
Jordan, thank you so much for being here with us.

00:01:33:07 - 00:01:53:18
Speaker 4
Loving what you're doing. I think that it's just such a fun exploration. I love your sort of creative, curious stance. I the second you guys reached out, I was like, these are my people. Yes we are. We are doing this. We are on board for whatever they want to do. Let's go on this ride together. So I'm thrilled to be here.

00:01:54:21 - 00:02:09:14
Speaker 2
Kelly and I were, like, so curious to learn a bit more about, like, how you got into working with dreams and, like, what came first? Was it your interest in dreams to be a therapist? And how did you find that?

00:02:09:15 - 00:02:34:19
Speaker 4
I love that. Okay. I will say that I've always, always, always been interested in dreams. Being a writer, kind of like Kelly was saying, I realize how much of my sort of creative material I end up pulling from my subconscious. Like, it's just I've always been a vivid dreamer. I've always had dreams stick with me, and I've always intuitively felt that dreams were important and that they mattered.

00:02:34:19 - 00:02:55:17
Speaker 4
And I remember that, like, as far back as I can go. So I just always had this, like, inherent interest. And then cut to I'm working in the entertainment industry, I'm living in Los Angeles, I'm working as a music supervisor for film and TV, and I am burned out, exhausted, not happy doing a job that I thought was a dream job.

00:02:55:17 - 00:03:00:00
Speaker 4
But I'm not okay. Like, as a as a human being am not.

00:03:00:00 - 00:03:01:07
Speaker 3
Well.

00:03:01:09 - 00:03:07:00
Speaker 2
It's a hard moment when that happens. You're like, I think I'm living my dream and it works. So.

00:03:07:02 - 00:03:07:06
Speaker 3
So.

00:03:07:06 - 00:03:35:11
Speaker 4
I went to therapy and I was lucky enough again, like Kelly was saying, I had one of those just soul connection therapists. My first therapist. Layla. I love you, Layla. And she was a psychodynamic therapist, which means that she worked very deeply with the subconscious. We worked a lot with dreams. And the program that I ended up enrolling in for grad school, Antioch University in Los Angeles, was very psychodynamic in its approach, which is rare.

00:03:35:11 - 00:03:56:06
Speaker 4
Most counseling programs these days are much more, sort of classically what we would call evidence based. Now, not to say that there isn't evidence for psychodynamic therapy. We could talk all about that, but this sort of, evidence based as more of a buzzword, even, I would say, forms of therapy such as, like cognitive behavioral therapy, things like this.

00:03:56:11 - 00:04:18:05
Speaker 4
No shade to those forms of therapy. They're extremely effective for what they treat. But for those of us who are really interested in like the nitty gritty, deep, shadowy stuff, psychodynamic is where it's that. And so that like psychodynamic therapy got its hooks in me like very early. And it just it paired so beautifully with my natural interest and, and dreams.

00:04:18:05 - 00:04:21:07
Speaker 3
So yeah.

00:04:21:09 - 00:04:25:13
Speaker 1
I love that. So that really was kind of like it was paired together through your ad.

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:28:07
Speaker 4
Yes. Not to mention my own therapy journey.

00:04:28:09 - 00:04:47:01
Speaker 1
I just I love that I, Holly and I have been talking about doing this episode for quite a while. And, as, as life happens, there are a lot of, like, things that kind of come up that for a while ago I had been, I think, I don't even remember how long ago it was that I had suggested.

00:04:47:03 - 00:05:00:15
Speaker 1
I was like, oh, we should look into dreams. I feel like there's a voice memo somewhere that I sent you, Holly, that was like, I just, I it's like me with Morning voice being like, I just woke up from this dream and it was so weird. And I think it would be cool to talk to someone who knows about dreams.

00:05:00:15 - 00:05:02:07
Speaker 1
And we should probably do that.

00:05:02:09 - 00:05:03:16
Speaker 3
Yes.

00:05:03:18 - 00:05:35:03
Speaker 1
But wildly, it's I really love that you talked about, like, the evidence of psychodynamic, therapy because I actually very recently was, I went in for an ADHD evaluation, and I left with four diagnoses. Which two of them I had known about. I'm like young girls, depressed, young girls anxious. Your girl does have ADHD. But I also was diagnosed with PTSD, which I was really not expecting.

00:05:35:05 - 00:05:55:14
Speaker 1
And I really I was like, kind of so thrown by that. But I also understood exactly why and where it came from. But it was something where I was just I found myself really fascinated by the fact that I was sitting in this very clinical room doing, I mean, I was doing if you've ever done.

00:05:55:19 - 00:05:56:16
Speaker 4
Which I have you.

00:05:56:16 - 00:06:06:08
Speaker 1
Evaluation, it's like it was like four. Yeah, it was four hours of testing in like a separate room. Wild. It's so.

00:06:06:10 - 00:06:07:19
Speaker 2
It will make you ADHD.

00:06:08:00 - 00:06:08:13
Speaker 1
Literally.

00:06:08:13 - 00:06:10:07
Speaker 2
I'm going through that. Yeah.

00:06:10:09 - 00:06:12:12
Speaker 1
I was like, well, this just feels designed.

00:06:12:12 - 00:06:14:07
Speaker 4
How does anyone tolerate this?

00:06:14:07 - 00:06:18:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, this is impossible.

00:06:18:02 - 00:06:37:23
Speaker 1
And that's the thing is that I, I love dreams, I love looking into what they mean, what they could be telling me. I, I've always been someone that's like, I think that someone, whether it's my future self or the universe or like a guardian angel or anything, like someone is trying to tell me something and trying to convey something.

00:06:38:01 - 00:06:58:19
Speaker 1
And I absolutely have changed the way I live based on what dreams have told me and and things in the past. And so anyway, I'm like, I remember just sitting in this room and being like, this feels so far from the place where it does not feel like this neuropsychologist would care about what I think my dreams are saying to me.

00:06:58:21 - 00:07:27:11
Speaker 1
And that wildly was one of the biggest things that they talked about were, for PTSD. They were like, you know, do you often have dreams or recurring dreams or nightmares about this incident or about, you know, this time in your life? And I was like, well, yeah. But I think it's just so fascinating because in my head I was like, oh, dreams are something that's kind of it's like hippie dippy.

00:07:27:11 - 00:07:34:18
Speaker 1
I feel like there are a lot of people in my life who are very like pragmatic, science based people, and they're like, it's just it's just dreams. Don't worry.

00:07:34:18 - 00:07:42:21
Speaker 4
You get real black or white about it, don't we? Yeah. Where it's either rational or it's mystical. And why can't it be both?

00:07:42:23 - 00:07:45:06
Speaker 3
Yes.

00:07:45:07 - 00:08:05:05
Speaker 1
Like that. That. Yeah. That was so wild to me that I was talking with this neuropsychology just who was like, yeah, you're telling me that you're dreaming about this thing, like, every single night? And you think that that doesn't maybe have something to to say to you, like something to point out. And I just was like, oh my gosh.

00:08:05:05 - 00:08:11:15
Speaker 1
So, okay, bringing it back to a question for you and not just like, here's my I'm loving this.

00:08:11:15 - 00:08:13:08
Speaker 4
So yeah.

00:08:13:10 - 00:08:22:02
Speaker 2
No, this is Kelly. This is so important to the questions about dreams. This is like thank you for sharing all of this. I think it's really meaningful.

00:08:22:04 - 00:08:45:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. The context is important. And I think well, I would love your perspective as a professional that works with dreams in therapy. How do dreams like help us in our healing journey? Are there ways to utilize them? Is there anything in particular that you, kind of. I don't even know how to phrase this. Like how you might be able to help me out.

00:08:45:23 - 00:08:47:13
Speaker 1
I feel like we had this conversation.

00:08:47:13 - 00:08:48:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00:08:48:10 - 00:09:00:05
Speaker 4
Dreams are dreams are inherently hard to grab onto and talk about, so it makes sense that you're having a little bit of trouble with the language. But we will we will find it together.

00:09:00:07 - 00:09:00:18
Speaker 3
But what I.

00:09:00:18 - 00:09:01:19
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

00:09:01:22 - 00:09:28:00
Speaker 1
I was just going to say, I guess, what we had kind of discussed is like, how do you kind of grab onto this, like, amorphous thing to help you learn more about who you are, to help you figure out what's going on in your brain. And then if there is like an obstacle or something that you need to heal from, how to utilize your work with with dreaming and with dreams to kind of start helping.

00:09:28:00 - 00:09:28:23
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, yes.

00:09:29:00 - 00:09:59:18
Speaker 4
Excellent. Because there are some tips and tricks. Okay. And what I will say is that we have to start much like in a mindfulness practice. Right? We have to start with the basics of just that kind of foundational level of just learning to pay close attention. Right. And so often we wake up from a dream and what do we do immediately we move on to something else because we have more pressing things to do with our time.

00:09:59:18 - 00:10:18:00
Speaker 4
Right? We wake up, we had a dream, but oh, I need to go make the coffee and I need to start thinking about what I'm doing at 9:00. And I've got a lot going on, and I just. It slips away. Right. So I will say that the most foundational practice to begin with is simply prioritizing a dream journaling practice.

00:10:18:00 - 00:10:20:08
Speaker 4
Right? Even even if.

00:10:20:08 - 00:10:20:17
Speaker 3
It's the.

00:10:20:17 - 00:10:26:08
Speaker 4
Sleepy voice memo like you were talking about earlier, right? Where I'm just like, babbling.

00:10:26:11 - 00:10:27:18
Speaker 2
We can have others dreams.

00:10:27:18 - 00:11:07:10
Speaker 4
I'm spilling into my phone quickly, like. And then there was this guy, and he was writing a gigantic toad. And then, like, I'm just riffing it quickly as I wake up, just to get it down. But I'll just say that I, I tell people that that is absolutely where to start is just by giving yourself permission to pay attention and to keep track because of what will happen, is you will very quickly notice that there are clear themes that are recurring that are playing out over and over, but it takes that little bit of diligence upfront to start really recording them, to be able to start seeing where those patterns start to emerge.

00:11:07:14 - 00:11:32:16
Speaker 4
So that is number one. Okay. And then I would say the second really important kind of feature, and this is where something like a, you know, therapy relationship or therapeutic container of some kind, like a group, can be really helpful, where once I have a couple of these dream themes that I've identified, I can start to do what we would call some experiential dreamwork.

00:11:32:16 - 00:12:17:06
Speaker 4
Okay. And yeah, what I mean by this, and I'm citing a very specific, sort of professional and resource who I love. Her name is Leslie Ellis, and she has a book, that is like a therapist's guide to experience dreamwork. That's excellent. But basically there are some kind of methods of essentially using, again, kind of a mindful, embodied practice that involves reentering a certain point in a dream within the mind's eye and sort of a meditative state, and then doing some free association, whether by speaking or journaling about where I feel in my body that this brain is act, I mean that this dream is activating me and where I might like the dream

00:12:17:06 - 00:12:41:02
Speaker 4
to go. Okay. And there's actually a lot of research, in this that relates to working with PTSD and PTSD specific nightmares, where I'm sort of using those mindfulness tools in a guided setting to go back into a dream and to essentially restore parts of the dream in a more empowering and helpful way. And that can be an extremely powerful practice.

00:12:41:02 - 00:13:02:18
Speaker 4
But it also for those of us who are not necessarily dealing with PTSD, it can also be a way of just getting a little bit more information and insight about the dream, because they often feel so unfinished, right? Like it's like I wake up at a certain point and I'm like, okay, I was kind of in the middle of this whole like story arc and yeah.

00:13:02:20 - 00:13:04:19
Speaker 2
And I'm now the world fuzed.

00:13:04:19 - 00:13:05:03
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:13:05:03 - 00:13:05:20
Speaker 2
And now you're.

00:13:05:21 - 00:13:35:10
Speaker 4
Used and I don't know where to go next. So it can be really helpful to give yourself that, you know, sort of playful space to just reenter the dream in a certain point. And we can even, you know, sometimes when we do embody the work we play around with, like body positioning and sort of like moving my body in a way that I might be moving it in the dream and then just allowing that kind of next step to just unfold, and just again, in a free associative way, which means I'm not really thinking too hard.

00:13:35:10 - 00:13:48:11
Speaker 4
I'm just kind of letting my, my subconscious sort of guide me in a way like you might when you're journaling and you just letting the pen just move freely and all of a sudden stuff starts coming out or you're like, oh.

00:13:48:12 - 00:13:54:05
Speaker 3
I didn't I didn't realize that was in there. I think that's so. Yeah.

00:13:54:07 - 00:14:05:16
Speaker 4
Experiential Dreamwork is is extremely, there are lots of different methods for doing it, but that's a way to sort of boil down how how it works and what it kind of feels like, what it looks like. So yeah.

00:14:05:18 - 00:14:06:20
Speaker 3
That's that's.

00:14:06:20 - 00:14:12:02
Speaker 4
The beginning of of answering that question. I'm sure there'll be lots more tidbits throughout the episode.

00:14:12:03 - 00:14:34:15
Speaker 2
Jordan, thank you so much for like expressing that. I love that framing of just like when we want to work with our dreams and through the lens of mindfulness, like you kind of said, for me, I feel like awareness is always that first step. Like, we can't do anything intentionally if we aren't aware of what already is. And meeting, yeah, meeting the moment.

00:14:34:15 - 00:14:57:04
Speaker 2
So like moving from awareness and then into experience and how we can play and so much see my world view is like it's all one, it's all a part of the whole. And as we're talking about dreams here, it's making me realize too, that like, our dreams aren't separate from us either. Like it's still a part of our experience and it's one that isn't tangible.

00:14:57:04 - 00:15:17:21
Speaker 2
And that's why it's so invasive to us. But it does seem like the more we're like bringing focus and awareness to dreams, how it really can play a role in your healing process. And maybe you can't fully heal if you aren't healing that dream self in that subconscious self too, because that sounds like such a key part of the integration of healing our wholeness.

00:15:18:01 - 00:15:40:10
Speaker 4
I think integration is the correct word. It's the word that my main man, Carl Jung, would have used. I was such an early convert and you hear a lot now about, you know, these different methods of therapy like IFS, internal family systems therapy, and so much of that is rooted in, you know, his principles, but sort of like modernized and like repackaged.

00:15:40:10 - 00:16:17:14
Speaker 4
But yeah, we're integration is the goal. And I completely agree that if we are hoping and striving towards integration, obviously never like fully arriving there, that's not the point. But if that's the goal, then I think that incorporating the subconscious is essential because like we were saying earlier, whether it's spirit or whether it's our future self or whether it's our our wisest, most present self, there is some guiding force, I believe, that's just pointing our attention in different directions that we might need to go.

00:16:17:16 - 00:16:35:12
Speaker 4
And I'm also realizing, as I'm speaking about that right now, that it might be helpful to even give like an example maybe of part of what I'm speaking about. And I you know, it's funny because I was thinking about it when I was getting ready for this interview and I was like, well, I've got lots of client examples, but I think I actually would prefer to share, like personal examples.

00:16:35:14 - 00:16:37:06
Speaker 4
On, on this type of show.

00:16:37:08 - 00:16:38:04
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:16:38:06 - 00:17:01:09
Speaker 4
Because I'm also a therapist who believes in, like, appropriate self-disclosure, as, as a means of working and as a, as a means of connecting on a human level. So, yeah, I'll say that in terms of experience or work, another method that I really like to use myself. And this is fun because you can do it on your own, is honoring a dream.

00:17:01:09 - 00:17:22:07
Speaker 4
So I had a dream not too long ago, and I was in the middle of doing some pretty intensive eMDR work, which, for those who are not familiar, eMDR is, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, and it's a form of processing through, traumatic memories and traumatic, somatic material that just kind of like lives in our bodies.

00:17:22:09 - 00:17:37:08
Speaker 4
And it's one of the forms of therapy that I use the most as a clinician, but that I have benefited from the most as a client. In terms of working through my own trauma. So, yeah, the context is I was in the middle of some intensive eMDR and, I had a dream where I.

00:17:37:08 - 00:17:37:20
Speaker 3
Was.

00:17:37:22 - 00:17:46:08
Speaker 4
And this is like visceral, right? Because dreams are visceral. They're not socially, like, acceptable and cute. They're they're usually pretty, like, gritty.

00:17:46:10 - 00:17:46:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:17:46:19 - 00:18:16:16
Speaker 4
It's like we went there. Yeah, exactly. And so in this dream, I'm pulling this, like, black substance out of my butt. Like, I'm just, like, pulling it out. Like, get out, get out. And I'm, like, pulling it out of it. And so I did this experiential, sort of ritual where, I mean, obviously I didn't have to pull anything out of my body for this, but I had a black stone represented that material that I had pulled out of my body, and I had a black stone that I took out into the yard.

00:18:16:16 - 00:18:52:05
Speaker 4
And I just did like a little ritual, said a few things, and then I buried the stone in the ground like, you are gone now. Goodbye. And so that was a way of sort of ritual izing, honoring the dream, basically taking it from the subconscious into my conscious, real life with this kind of symbolic gesture and letting that act as a form of sort of giving gratitude for that dream, that symbol that released that I think was, sort of honored and expressed in my dream and then, like, giving it a place in the real life.

00:18:52:06 - 00:19:12:14
Speaker 4
Yeah. Just to kind of kind of, give an offering maybe like to the dream maker. And that was really powerful. It really, like, stuck with me and I had a lot of journaling. I did in the days after that felt very significant. And so that's just. Yeah, like one, one form of that. Yeah.

00:19:12:16 - 00:19:14:05
Speaker 2
I'm in love with that.

00:19:14:07 - 00:19:16:17
Speaker 4
You're in love with my dream black Stone. Great.

00:19:16:18 - 00:19:23:04
Speaker 3
I'm in love with your book, black Stone dream, I really am.

00:19:23:06 - 00:19:24:03
Speaker 3
But, like.

00:19:24:05 - 00:19:24:14
Speaker 2
Let me.

00:19:24:14 - 00:19:25:21
Speaker 3
Explain.

00:19:25:23 - 00:19:29:00
Speaker 1
We just found the name of a title of this podcast. By the way.

00:19:29:03 - 00:19:54:02
Speaker 2
Now that black Stone dreams welcome. The like, as you're saying that I just couldn't get over it. Just sounded like like you're totally just a friend. That's just communicating all of these things with you. And it speaks another language sometimes, and you're just, like, trying to decipher what it's saying. And like, you're listening to that and honoring like, oh, my friend is trying to communicate something to me.

00:19:54:02 - 00:20:14:15
Speaker 2
It's not coming through in the clearest way for me. So, like, what if I try to understand it in this way? What if I do that? Like, how can I honor what the whispers of what you're telling me? How can I kind of decipher that? And that just like I know I had never thought of my dreams as a friend before, but now I'm like, oh, when I'm going to go to sleep, I'm going to like, hang out with, like dream Holly and hear what she has to say.

00:20:14:15 - 00:20:15:12
Speaker 2
Girl, let's hang.

00:20:15:12 - 00:20:37:22
Speaker 4
Out for a little bit. I'm here. I'm listening. Yeah, yeah, I, I completely agree. I think that, like, sort of turning towards our dreams in that way, is a big shift for a lot of people because I think that for many of us, our dream material holds this mystery that people can find really uncomfortable. Scary. Like, sometimes we feel like we don't even want to go there.

00:20:37:22 - 00:20:49:07
Speaker 4
I don't even want to know what's in the depths. Right? And so if I can try to kind of familiar allies, make it more of a friend. It can be really helpful.

00:20:49:09 - 00:20:55:02
Speaker 1
I love that. Okay, this is a good segue way to a little. A little, like nerdy.

00:20:55:04 - 00:20:57:21
Speaker 4
Yes. That I had for you.

00:20:57:23 - 00:21:20:13
Speaker 1
Which is, I heard, I don't know, years ago. And I've heard from a couple different things that you can teach yourself or train your sure dream. And to like, control the world in your dreams. I had heard a couple different things, but the the most common I had heard was through dream journaling. Like starting there again. It sounds like just that.

00:21:20:16 - 00:21:22:17
Speaker 4
Like setting an intention.

00:21:22:19 - 00:21:54:06
Speaker 1
Not. Yeah, not turning it away. But I think what's interesting is that especially like with the context of my kind of recurring dream being something that has to do with, trauma in the past, I was finding for years that I would dream about the same person in the same time in my life, and it became a thing where I woke up in the morning and was mad at myself for having had another dream where this person was there.

00:21:54:07 - 00:22:18:13
Speaker 1
Even to the point it's so wild because it's been happening for years and I was on vacation with my family. My family and I are very close, like my mom and sisters know about. I'm like, I had another dream about this person and I had a dream like this summer. And for context, I only got I got diagnosed with PTSD in like late September, mid September.

00:22:18:15 - 00:22:48:08
Speaker 1
So maybe in July I had a dream in which I like finally like stood up and like said my peace to this person and was like, you cannot do this anymore. I feel like, yes, it felt so empowering. It felt so like I am done, I'm not doing this anymore. And also because I think a lot of this is from a time when I was much younger, I've carried a lot of, anger at myself for not knowing better.

00:22:48:08 - 00:23:12:02
Speaker 1
And I, through therapy especially, I like had a lot of going. You need to you need to good. You need to give yourself some grace because you were so young and this person was so young and you know, all of these things. But what's really interesting is that, like July, I had this dream, I woke up and I felt euphoric and I like went to my mom, and my sister was like, I just had a dream.

00:23:12:02 - 00:23:19:11
Speaker 1
And I said, this and it's over and it's done. And it really the way I was like, I'm washing my hands of that.

00:23:19:11 - 00:23:22:20
Speaker 4
I'm never going to like it again. Like yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:22:22 - 00:23:26:00
Speaker 1
I totally went into that where I was like problem.

00:23:26:00 - 00:23:26:06
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:23:26:06 - 00:23:28:10
Speaker 3
Solved. Never.

00:23:28:12 - 00:23:38:20
Speaker 1
Check that off you know. Done. And then of course I did have a little bit of time where I did not dream about this person. And I was like, I can't believe that really.

00:23:38:20 - 00:23:40:15
Speaker 3
Worked, like I really did it.

00:23:40:17 - 00:24:05:16
Speaker 1
And then of course, the next time I had a dream, it was like double just crestfallen defeat where I was just like, oh my gosh, I can't, I can't believe I didn't solve this. Like, I can't believe I didn't, like, actually finish it. I'm done. And of course, that was months before I even received a diagnosis that was like, hey, this might, you know, there's more going on there.

00:24:05:18 - 00:24:40:15
Speaker 1
So I just, I think for me, looking at lucid dreaming and training yourself to do that, I think I've actually been pretty scared of that because I was like, exactly what you said without, without purposefully trying to, like, integrate my subconscious into my daily waking life. I think that that was something where I was like, wake up, get mad at the dream I just had, get mad at my own brain for having, you know, given these images to me again and been like, great.

00:24:40:15 - 00:25:10:04
Speaker 1
Well, that's a bad start to my day. Done. Like. And I think that for a while the idea of lucid dreaming was like, I don't want to intentionally put myself back in this situation though. That's so dark and whatever. And I guess I'm just all of this is a long winded way to say that. I'm really curious. You kind of mentioned already like, with dream journaling and just being conscious of it, pulling it to the, to the forefront that you can really start to lean into, like, what is this trying to tell me?

00:25:10:06 - 00:25:25:03
Speaker 1
I love that you have like a ritual that you did with the with the past, but stuff. And I'm just I'm so curious because I think I think initially when I heard about lucid dreaming, I was like, oh, cool. So if I want to fly, I can fly in my car.

00:25:25:04 - 00:25:27:01
Speaker 4
I mean, yeah, make that happen.

00:25:27:03 - 00:25:57:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm like fun. I want to do that. Yeah. I'm like so curious. Yeah. Okay. This was very long winded to say that I'm so intrigued about the lucid dreaming. And also, like, I don't know if you work with people, specifically on going back into lucid dream, like, I guess I would be scared that I'm now putting my own, like, my conscious self into like, like putting the dream where I want it to go rather than does it have to do.

00:25:57:03 - 00:26:21:12
Speaker 4
That makes so much sense. I okay, I want to speak to two things that you said. One is that I absolutely, believe in sort of the, I guess, what I would call like a reframe of moving from frustration with myself and my brain for like giving me this material over and over and over again into this place of healing is never linear.

00:26:21:18 - 00:27:04:18
Speaker 4
There's always going to be this feeling of, wow, I'm vanquishing one aspect of this. You know, painful, maladaptive experience that I'm having, right? I'm moving to the next level, even if it's not completely quote unquote, solve or absolved or dissolved within me, even if I still carry pieces of this with me, I'm still moving forward. Right. And so being able to work with the dream experientially, which means essentially I am honoring what the dream is presenting, and I'm choosing to turn towards it to listen, to move with it.

00:27:04:19 - 00:27:38:22
Speaker 4
That's an ongoing I mean, that's a lifelong process and practice. And I think that for so many of us, that friction of what's wrong with me, why aren't I over this? That's something that I am speaking about in my therapy room constantly. Right? Whether it's whether it's consciously or subconsciously, we often are not giving ourselves that, that grace where we're realizing that some of these themes are going to be these kind of like lifelong untangling that, that we're doing as humans.

00:27:39:00 - 00:28:05:03
Speaker 4
Because being a human is messy. So yeah, I wanted to like, shout that out. But then also I wanted to say that lucid dreaming is amazing and we can talk about it. It's such a fascinating phenomenon that I have certainly, you know, played around with and will continue to play around with. But also, I wanted to say that we don't have to train ourselves to lucid dream in order to work with our dream material.

00:28:05:04 - 00:28:20:05
Speaker 4
Right. Because lucid dreaming is it's like a whole it's basically like a, a whole school of of thought and, even like a yogic principle, if I'm correct, actually.

00:28:20:07 - 00:28:24:13
Speaker 2
Can you share, like a Reader's Digest version of what lucid dreaming is for?

00:28:24:16 - 00:28:50:15
Speaker 4
Say, I am by no means a lucid dreaming, expert. It's more of just like a, you know, sort of casual interest of mine. But I will say that from my perspective, lucid dreaming is about, essentially joining with the sort of dream maker, if you will. And what I would call in more of like a sort of collaborative process, maybe.

00:28:50:20 - 00:29:18:13
Speaker 4
So in my experience, when I have lucid dreams, I have wanted to have some fun, exciting experiences, like flying, like swimming with dolphins, okay. Like fun things like that. And so from from my perspective, if I'm working with my sort of, you know, dream maker collaborator, we're creating experiences that we both feel are useful somehow, right? Even if it's just to have fun.

00:29:18:15 - 00:29:43:02
Speaker 4
So I think that it's very for me, it has been a very kind of playful practice more than anything else. I have saved these sort of therapeutic dream work for more of that kind of experiential therapy. Processing and lucid dreaming is then more like, let's just have a good time because we can.

00:29:43:04 - 00:29:46:15
Speaker 3
Because of that. Because why not?

00:29:46:17 - 00:30:05:21
Speaker 4
But I will say that the times in my life where I have lucid dreams have certainly been the times in my life where I felt closest to my dream maker. Like I was like working on my dreams a lot and like, our relationship was in a really good, like, tight place where we're, like, simpatico. That's when I would have more lucid dreams.

00:30:06:01 - 00:30:24:09
Speaker 4
Whereas, you know, we all go through phases where, I mean, especially for me right now, I'm a new mom. Dreams have been so, like on the back burner right now. I am not dreaming very often. I'm not sleeping super well, and I'm not writing my dreams down ever, because I'm barely having time to, like, brush my teeth.

00:30:24:11 - 00:30:47:10
Speaker 4
So I'm in a phase right now where I'm not, like, super close with Dream Maker. We're having a little moment where we're stepping, stepping away. And so I'm probably not going to lucid dream right now. But I think that lucid dreaming is very much a process of like setting an intention and believing in it and sticking with that intention until something fun and exciting happens.

00:30:47:12 - 00:31:10:07
Speaker 4
So yeah, I hope that's helpful. There's a really cool podcast called Dream On. The host, Jennifer, is a lucid dreaming like expert because of her own life. She's been lucid dreaming. Yeah, she's been lucid dreaming since she was, like a kid. And she has a really fun, kind of, you know, set of, like, steps for practicing lucid dreaming that you can look into if you're, if you're interested.

00:31:10:09 - 00:31:11:13
Speaker 4
She's a really great resource.

00:31:11:13 - 00:31:43:09
Speaker 2
I am really curious about. I was told this, I don't know, I was pretty young. My mom was always, like, pretty into dream stuff and had this little, like, dream nice, book by her bed and she would jot down her dreams. And I was always, like, told how important the symbolism and dreams were. And sometimes when. So like, I kind of gotten to practice for a while of like writing down, not even like the theme of what happened in my dreams, or just like the symbols of what happened, and then just kind of like looking them up to see the symbolism.

00:31:43:11 - 00:32:08:09
Speaker 2
And so often I have found that I'm like, oh, that that touches on something like so deep that I, like, totally communicated what I was feeling. It was like someone stealing my shoes. I remember that being the first time being like, and it was like totally related. But I'm curious for you, like in your work, is that something that, like symbolism is an important factor in dreams?

00:32:08:09 - 00:32:13:11
Speaker 2
Or how do you piecemeal to decipher meaning and grappling?

00:32:13:12 - 00:32:23:22
Speaker 4
Great questions. Yes, I believe that dreams, you know, the dream maker as we keep referring to her, they.

00:32:24:00 - 00:32:24:05
Speaker 3
I.

00:32:24:05 - 00:32:47:15
Speaker 4
Believe that they speak the language of symbol. Much like you guys just did an episode on tarot. Much like tarot sort of speaks and utilizes the language of symbol. I think that dreams work the same way. I think that they speak that language because it's an all encompassing language. Like, I can present you with, you know, a penny as a symbol.

00:32:47:15 - 00:33:22:11
Speaker 4
And that symbol can have, like, infinite different iterations of meaning based on the individual for whom that symbol is being presented. So it doesn't mean just one thing. It means this whole plethora of things that can evolve and change. And that's why it's such a useful language for something so vast. So, yes, the sort of yunjin framework that I learned early on was learning to work with and be curious about symbol, not only from a sort of personal association perspective.

00:33:22:11 - 00:33:42:06
Speaker 4
So, like, if I dream about an apple, what are my personal associations with apples? Like, did I, like, choke on an apple one time when I was a kid? Okay, well that's significant, right? Like like what? What does Apple bring up for me? But then also what are the kind of, you know, mythical associations with Apple, right?

00:33:42:07 - 00:34:10:17
Speaker 4
Like what would the ancient Greeks have had to say about apples? And is that something that is useful or interesting to me in a way that I might not have realized? And when we get into that territory, we're touching into more of what we call the collective unconscious. Okay, so yeah, Carl Jung believed that there was this kind of, the term that we would use now as a metaphor would be like a cloud of knowledge that we are all able to sort of like download from that.

00:34:10:17 - 00:34:42:02
Speaker 4
Is this, like basic symbolic bank of knowledge that all humans are born with and have? And so a classic example that we use is like the image of the snake as like this sort of like sly eye, you know, maybe a little bit wayward figure. Right. And the way that that has appeared in myths across multiple different cultures that had no, you know, associations with each other or no way of communicating with each other, that symbol shows up in similar ways all across space and time.

00:34:42:04 - 00:35:04:17
Speaker 4
So the idea is that we have our personal associations and we have these kind of collective associations that we can also tap into. And that is such a fun way to work with dreams, because you would be surprised how much you discover, just by looking into the kind of symbolism, of each of the main, you know, figures, objects, symbols in your dream.

00:35:04:22 - 00:35:27:09
Speaker 4
And then from there, you can do more of that kind of experiential work of even, like something I've done before is like a dialoging with one of those, like, symbols or figures and just like, sort of. Yeah, creating like a conversation with them that I'm just journaling and letting them respond and answer my questions. And just noticing what kinds of interesting things pop up.

00:35:27:09 - 00:35:34:19
Speaker 1
Do you have a specific resource that you use for looking into symbolism, or is it literally just like Google? Like, what does Eagle.

00:35:34:21 - 00:35:53:05
Speaker 4
I think that I think that as you are doing both the personal and the collective, I think it's perfectly fine to look into it that way. When I see people do all the time is they skip over their personal associations and knowing, and they go right to like, what does the internet have to say about this? Right. So I think we have to.

00:35:53:06 - 00:35:53:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:35:53:23 - 00:36:12:21
Speaker 2
I will say that is what I have done to this point. And I've used like Dreamforce, which could be a total crap website, or it could be good sometimes, but I like the idea of like looking into like maybe the meaning of symbols and other cultures as a whole to pull that in. But definitely what you're naming of like starting with yourself.

00:36:12:21 - 00:36:14:16
Speaker 2
I have told us that stuff.

00:36:14:16 - 00:36:15:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, let us.

00:36:15:15 - 00:36:27:05
Speaker 4
Let it be both explore. But yeah, remember that you are your own authority for the dream maker, right? Yeah. It's not what somebody else thinks about the symbol. It's what you think about it.

00:36:27:07 - 00:36:33:08
Speaker 1
It's so wild because I know whatever that I'm. I don't by any means have the actual.

00:36:33:10 - 00:36:33:23
Speaker 4
Quote.

00:36:33:23 - 00:36:40:04
Speaker 1
Or percentage in my head, but I know that there's, like, that thing that's like, we only use x amount capacity of.

00:36:40:04 - 00:36:40:20
Speaker 4
Our staggering.

00:36:40:20 - 00:37:12:12
Speaker 1
What it has to, you know, like, yeah, a wildly low percentage is like the average human is using this much. And I have always thought that it's so interesting that I'm like, well, I feel like the subconscious is where so much of that other part that we're not using regularly is like like it stores. It's kind of like when you're like, I mean, I'm in my early 30s, I find myself regularly frustrated by things that I feel like I should be able to or like, recall this person's name that I just met.

00:37:12:12 - 00:37:21:11
Speaker 1
But I'm like, ask me like what Ludacris is rap verse on Justin Bieber song baby is and it's in there. You know.

00:37:21:12 - 00:37:22:14
Speaker 3
I, I'm like.

00:37:22:16 - 00:37:28:07
Speaker 1
I'm like, I, I've been storing this because that's important to me is something. I mean, I'm not.

00:37:28:07 - 00:37:28:17
Speaker 4
Mad that.

00:37:28:17 - 00:37:30:11
Speaker 2
That's what you remember Kelly.

00:37:30:12 - 00:37:32:17
Speaker 3
That's why we love you.

00:37:32:19 - 00:37:50:01
Speaker 1
I'm like, if I'm at the dance party and it comes up, I got it, I got you. I don't remember what I learned in history class, but I can do that. So yeah, but like I it's it is so interesting to go like, well hang on I don't like to not skip over what does this mean in my life?

00:37:50:01 - 00:38:08:06
Speaker 1
And also because I feel like dreams bring up things that you're like, oh my gosh, I have not thought about that in 20 years. And okay, so why is it coming up today? Like, what is that? What is it trying to teach me? What is it trying to tell me? And you know, and maybe sometimes it is just like your brain being like, remember when this happened?

00:38:08:06 - 00:38:08:11
Speaker 1
And you're.

00:38:08:11 - 00:38:09:17
Speaker 4
Like, you're like, okay.

00:38:09:17 - 00:38:11:17
Speaker 3
Thanks. Yeah. I always.

00:38:11:19 - 00:38:13:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, like, maybe it's not always.

00:38:13:00 - 00:38:31:07
Speaker 4
I tell, you know, people who are interested, right? Not everybody is interested in dreams. Some people just do not care. And that's fine. I'm not here to try to convert anybody. Right. But for those who are interested, I always say, okay, can you just start with like, what are some of my associations with this? How can I let this, unfold?

00:38:31:07 - 00:38:53:18
Speaker 4
Right? But can I just be curious? Can I just be curious about what's showing up? And if there is a figure in a dream that feels like, okay, there's a lot of emotional attachment to this figure, right? That is such a great clue of like, let me look into this a little bit more. Whereas if I'm having a dream that feels like it's just kind of, oh, that was weird and interesting.

00:38:53:18 - 00:39:15:06
Speaker 4
I don't feel a lot going on there. Like viscerally. Then maybe it is just like we're expelling some energy or we're processing through something weird that happened like the other day and it's coming out sideways. But I always tell people, let that emotional quality of the dream material be your guide, right? If there's a strong emotional sense, let's let's follow that.

00:39:15:06 - 00:39:41:22
Speaker 4
There's probably more going on. And if not, that's fine. Like that. Sometimes our dreams are just kind of like, I, I always talk about it in terms of like, sometimes they're just firing neurons, like, you know, just expelling some energy. But sometimes it's this deeper material. The other thing I wanted to say before I forget, because my ADHD brain also has trouble holding on to things.

00:39:42:00 - 00:40:00:16
Speaker 4
Is that the process I was talking about earlier where we're kind of dialoging with a dream figure? That's so useful. That process is what Carl Jung would have called, like an active imagination exercise. So if you end up wanting to try that and look that up, that's a great, like, term to use. Active imagination. Yeah.

00:40:00:18 - 00:40:01:14
Speaker 1
Amazing.

00:40:01:16 - 00:40:02:09
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:40:02:11 - 00:40:23:15
Speaker 1
Oh, I love that. It's so. Yeah, it's very interesting. And this is actually something that I would, I was thinking about and was like, I really wonder what it is that makes people, have these wildly different experiences when it comes to what they tend to or how they tend to dream. Because I know, like I am someone that I.

00:40:23:16 - 00:40:53:21
Speaker 1
Similarly, Jordan, to what you've said, like I absolutely have had the most crazy vibrant like out of this world dreams that I can, if I think about it, go like, oh, of course, that's why this is happening, because this thing and like, that's what it's trying to show me and all this stuff. And one of the funniest things, especially because we knew we had this podcast coming up, I was like trying to really think about, okay, like, remember your dreams when you wake up kind of thing.

00:40:53:23 - 00:41:19:05
Speaker 1
And I had one of the most like, I don't think this means anything deeper. This is just what's going on in your life. Have for context, to like we for the last week or so, I'm in Connecticut and we have had, really crazy fire watches, which we never have, which is scary. But we in my town, especially there have been, like, brush fires and things that are going on.

00:41:19:07 - 00:41:38:00
Speaker 1
So it's been very everyone's like, It's Halloween, please don't put jack o lanterns out this year. I'm so sorry, but no open flames. And then the other thing that happened like two nights ago is my mom made this soup recipe that she was so excited about. It's like a broccoli cheddar thing. And it came out, like way thicker than she meant it to.

00:41:38:00 - 00:41:54:17
Speaker 1
And she was so disappointed. And I was like, mom, it'll be great. You can like, put pasta in it, make it like a mac and cheese like it's great. It's great. Yeah. And that night I like I woke up the next morning was like. So I had a dream that I went into our pantry and I was like, is that steam?

00:41:54:17 - 00:42:17:19
Speaker 1
What's going on? And there was smoke in the pantry, and we had just had a bunch of like, paper bags that were all just starting to catch fire. And I was like, oh my gosh, like, what is happening? We got okay, the fire thing. So I put that out. And then as I was moving all of these paper bags, I realized that the floor was just covered with like that, like the cheese packets from like Kraft market.

00:42:17:21 - 00:42:18:17
Speaker 3
And I literally.

00:42:18:17 - 00:42:27:21
Speaker 1
Was like sitting there being like, interesting. What that what could that sell me like. And I'm like, there's been a fire watch and you were talking about mac and cheese.

00:42:27:23 - 00:42:35:03
Speaker 4
Exactly. You're like, wait a minute, I don't have a strong emotional attachment here. This is just kind of entertaining.

00:42:35:05 - 00:42:39:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. It was like, oh, okay. Cool. Like, I feel like it's.

00:42:39:10 - 00:42:54:04
Speaker 1
Fun to also when you talk about, like you said, like, you know, make friends with like, the dream creator or like Holly said, like dream. Holly, I just, I love the idea that sometimes, like, Dream Kelly is just like, I don't know, I've been thinking about this a lot. Yeah. Here you go.

00:42:54:10 - 00:42:57:18
Speaker 2
Dream Kelly's just as weird as regular Kelly.

00:42:57:20 - 00:43:02:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I do.

00:43:02:21 - 00:43:41:10
Speaker 1
But I like I'm so curious because is there something, that you have come across in your, like, research and learning of all whatever all of the what did you call it? A dynamic, dynamic. Yes. So like, like in all of your education that you've done in all of the years that you've worked as a therapist, specifically working with dreams, is there anything that you've come across that's like evidence based for why some people tend to have these really vibrant, like abstract dreams, and some people are just like, I either don't remember my dreams or I don't, I don't think I dream or they're.

00:43:41:10 - 00:44:05:12
Speaker 4
Just I know, I'm so curious about that too. I wish that I, I wish we had better studies about basically everything dream related. I will just say extremely hard subject to actually study in like, an empirical way. However, just from my own kind of experience and observation, I would say that first of all, everyone dreams and has the capacity to dream.

00:44:05:12 - 00:44:26:15
Speaker 4
So for those who feel like they don't, there is probably one just a lack of like emphasis. Because like where our attention flows, energy goes. Right. Like if I'm not, if I'm not actively paying attention to my dreams, then I'm the dream maker. Just kind of stops trying to present them to me because it's it's a waste of energy.

00:44:26:15 - 00:44:49:16
Speaker 4
Right. So yeah, if I'm not paying super close attention, then I'm not going to get a whole lot back. But also we have to look at like the quality of our sleep too, right? Because I, I will speak for myself right now. Sleep quality, not so great. Dreams not flowing right now. So I I'll just say that first and foremost from like kind of a basic point of view.

00:44:49:22 - 00:45:16:05
Speaker 4
But I do think it's really interesting that some people have dreams that feel so like outlandish and otherworldly, and some people seem to tend to have dreams that are more sort of like, like, playing out of a daily scenario that would occur, like in their lives. Yes. That's that's fascinating to me. And I have no idea why that is the case, but I think it's so wild.

00:45:16:07 - 00:45:34:23
Speaker 4
But what I will also say is that I think that sometimes those, you know, more quote unquote, sort of mundane dreams have just as much meaning and significance as the ones that are really, like, wild and crazy and like, maybe I'm traveling to astral realms, but who knows, right? Like.

00:45:35:00 - 00:45:37:04
Speaker 3
Who's to say.

00:45:37:06 - 00:46:01:08
Speaker 4
I think that they can be just as just as significant. And that comes from my, my own experience as well, but also, I think there's just a lot of variance in our brains and in our sort of wiring, because there are also a lot of people who don't dream in color, by the way, like there are a lot of people who, yeah, who dream in more like a black and white, like sepia like tone.

00:46:01:10 - 00:46:02:14
Speaker 4
Whereas,

00:46:02:16 - 00:46:03:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:46:03:10 - 00:46:05:14
Speaker 2
I have no idea what my dreams look like.

00:46:05:18 - 00:46:06:23
Speaker 1
Same, I.

00:46:06:23 - 00:46:07:10
Speaker 2
Have no idea.

00:46:07:10 - 00:46:08:03
Speaker 3
What that looks like.

00:46:08:03 - 00:46:14:23
Speaker 4
So, Holly, do you mean that, like, there's not as much of a strong, like, visual, sense? Yeah.

00:46:14:23 - 00:46:20:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's not very visual. It's. Yeah, it's very like, this is the storyline, but I can't.

00:46:20:18 - 00:46:30:02
Speaker 4
I totally see so much more of, like, a felt sense than it is like a, like a movie that's playing. Yeah. Exactly.

00:46:30:04 - 00:46:48:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Which to me kind of makes a lot of sense for me is like, I'm like a feeler, like, I feel things I don't always see the picture super clearly, but I feel so I wonder how it relates to like, just our personalities as people. It's just like a an extension.

00:46:48:02 - 00:47:17:12
Speaker 4
Well, it makes sense that the dream maker would be working with our own sort of personal, you know, temperament and the the language of our own kind of intuition. So if I, when I receive intuitive information, if I receive it in a very like, you know, fairly visceral body way, then yeah, I might get more of my dream material that way too, if I see it all playing out before my eyes like a beautiful film, then I might get more visual information like that.

00:47:17:12 - 00:47:41:14
Speaker 4
Makes sense to me. Yeah, there is evidence as to like substance use and dreaming and what? Yeah, one big factor is using alcohol. Using marijuana regularly can sort of tamp down that dreaming effect. Yeah. Which I based on the person. And that might be something to keep in mind if dreams are interesting to you. If you want to invite Watkins.

00:47:41:16 - 00:47:44:01
Speaker 2
If he gets so excited when he starts dreaming again.

00:47:44:01 - 00:47:45:02
Speaker 3
I'm like, yes.

00:47:45:04 - 00:47:45:23
Speaker 2
What's happening in.

00:47:45:23 - 00:47:51:18
Speaker 4
There? You know, I don't know why, but I know, I know, it's the question. I don't know the science of why.

00:47:51:20 - 00:48:04:08
Speaker 1
Okay, then this is a really quick, true or false thing. Is it true that there or do you know, is it true that people like twins especially, can have the same dream?

00:48:04:10 - 00:48:38:19
Speaker 4
Yes, is absolutely true. In fact, I actually interviewed, a set of twins on the podcast, and they talked about how often they have the same exact dream, like down to the exact detail. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And there's also I, you know, I'll have to look and see if I can find any actual like, studies about this, but there are there's actually a lot of anecdotal evidence that people have, you know, linked up in their dreams in, in, in terms of just like having sort of these mirror image versions of the same dream.

00:48:38:21 - 00:49:00:13
Speaker 4
And my husband and I actually have a story around that where he was on a trip with friends, taking psychedelic mushrooms, and he and I had, like, a dream link up that weekend. Like I'm at home in my bed just having a normal dream. He's having a psychedelic trip, and we dreamed about the same, like, material, actually, we dreamed about our daughter that we have now, so.

00:49:00:13 - 00:49:00:20
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:49:01:01 - 00:49:06:06
Speaker 3
000, right.

00:49:06:07 - 00:49:15:19
Speaker 1
All right. I'm just going to put it out there that I'm like officially right. Yes. I'm like, this is just saying I'm obsessed with you, that I, I have so.

00:49:15:19 - 00:49:22:02
Speaker 3
Many I would love to do a part two.

00:49:22:04 - 00:49:39:15
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, just following up on what we literally were just saying, we talked about so many cool things that obviously I'm sure you can hear. We were nowhere near done with this conversation. I feel like I could talk about this for years, undoubtedly.

00:49:39:15 - 00:50:02:14
Speaker 2
So if you are not watching this on YouTube, you will see Kelly and I's jaws are just dropped for the solid like last five minutes of this episode. So clearly we had to bring Jordan back. Because there is so much more to dive into. So stay tuned for next month's episode because sweet baby Angel Jordan is coming back to the pod.

00:50:02:16 - 00:50:08:10
Speaker 1
Let's go join Jordan part two.

00:50:13:00 - 00:50:40:05
Speaker 2
Hey, listeners, I just want to let you know that I love you. We love you, and thank you for listening. And we need your support to keep this podcast going so you can support the podcast by joining the Dream Team for as little as $3 a month, following the podcast on your favorite streaming platform, just hit that will follow button and leave a review, preferably a five star review, and share an episode you love with a friend.

00:50:40:07 - 00:54:46:18
Speaker 2
This is like talking to the podcast Algorithm Gods and helps more people find the pod. And it means the world to us and makes our dreams come true. So join the Dream team, leave a review, follow the pod and share an episode you love and we will continue having these creative conversations with you.